On Wednesdays, We Smash the Patriarchy! Unpacking Male Allyship With Jeremy Stockdale

Speaker: 00:00:00

>> Jeremy Stockdale: And that's why it's so unfair. Because that's the tightrope that women

Speaker: 00:00:02

walk. We know we've got to be assertive and tough and confident, but you don't want to

Speaker: 00:00:05

be too assertive because it'll be called bossy. And you don't want to be too

Speaker: 00:00:08

tough because then you'll be called a bitch.

Speaker: 00:00:10

>> Wo0: Welcome to Don't Fucking Tell Me what to Wear or How

Speaker: 00:00:13

to run My Business. This is the

Speaker: 00:00:15

Woo pod.

Speaker: 00:00:16

>> Jeremy Stockdale: In over 30 years of working, I've never once heard

Speaker: 00:00:19

a man called either bossy or a bitch.

Speaker: 00:00:22

In fact, the kind of things that would get you labelled that as

Speaker: 00:00:25

a woman, I got celebrated for.

Speaker: 00:00:28

>> Wo0: I'm your host, Wendy Gannon, but most people call me Woo.

Speaker: 00:00:31

I'm a photographer, adhder, female advocate,

Speaker: 00:00:34

and let's be honest, an all around legend.

Speaker: 00:00:37

Can you tell I didn't write this script?

Speaker: 00:00:43

This podcast is part of Female5Million, a

Speaker: 00:00:45

movement founded to empower women to step the fuck up,

Speaker: 00:00:48

take control and unapologetically own their

Speaker: 00:00:51

space. It all started

Speaker: 00:00:54

with some fucking Jebbins LinkedIn post

Speaker: 00:00:57

sp shouting some sexist bullshit about how women should dress

Speaker: 00:01:00

to succeed in business. And you know what?

Speaker: 00:01:02

Stuff like that really me

Speaker: 00:01:05

off. It really me off.

Speaker: 00:01:08

So I posted about it and that post ignited

Speaker: 00:01:11

something bigger. a nationwide photography project, a full

Speaker: 00:01:14

blown movement. And now this podcast

Speaker: 00:01:18

here on the Woo Pod, we're raising the voices of women who

Speaker: 00:01:21

refuse to be told what to do. Women who are done playing

Speaker: 00:01:24

by the rules and are now saying, don't tell me what to wear or

Speaker: 00:01:27

how to run my business. If you've ever been told to

Speaker: 00:01:29

tone it down, dress more appropriately or run

Speaker: 00:01:32

your business like a man. Fuck that.

Speaker: 00:01:36

Expect raw, unfiltered conversations with women who

Speaker: 00:01:39

have fought through sexism, abuse and

Speaker: 00:01:42

outdated, patriarchal to build success on their

Speaker: 00:01:45

terms. all whilst wearing whatever the fuck they want.

Speaker: 00:01:48

Oh, and there's more swearing than our producer is willing to

Speaker: 00:01:51

beep out. Sorry, buckers. Speaking of

Speaker: 00:01:54

which, you'll probably hear me ask producer backers to chime

Speaker: 00:01:57

in from time to time. Because like I give a shit

Speaker: 00:02:00

what she says. We've both got adhd. We bounce well off each

Speaker: 00:02:02

other. Deal with it. We're here

Speaker: 00:02:05

to celebrate women doing business their way and shine a spotlight

Speaker: 00:02:08

on the incredible ways women are fighting back and lifting each other

Speaker: 00:02:11

up. Because, to be honest, that's what it's all about.

Speaker: 00:02:15

and for those who aren't able to speak up right now, for

Speaker: 00:02:17

whatever reason, I see you.

Speaker: 00:02:22

Okay, let's Crack on, then.

Speaker: 00:02:27

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the, Don't Tell Me

Speaker: 00:02:30

what to wear or how to run my Business podcast,

Speaker: 00:02:33

part of the Woo pod. I've

Speaker: 00:02:36

got obviously, producer Buckers here with me,

Speaker: 00:02:39

but today we've got the absolute legend

Speaker: 00:02:42

that is Jeremy Stockdale. Hi,

Speaker: 00:02:44

Jeremy.

Speaker: 00:02:45

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Hello.

Speaker: 00:02:47

>> Wo0: Can you tell us about all about yourself, Jeremy? What do you do?

Speaker: 00:02:50

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yes, so, I run a company called Ylead

Speaker: 00:02:53

I set it up during a pandemic, in

Speaker: 00:02:55

2020 and, but prior to that I'd worked for a

Speaker: 00:02:58

big organisation for 27 years. And,

Speaker: 00:03:01

so, yeah, my, the company widely, is about

Speaker: 00:03:05

leadership and why people should lead. Because I, I was a

Speaker: 00:03:08

classic accidental manager in my career. I suddenly got in the

Speaker: 00:03:11

organisation, they gave me a whole bunch of people, I didn't know what to do with them. And

Speaker: 00:03:13

after about a couple of years of really being not very good at it,

Speaker: 00:03:16

I started to kind of have a bit better impact

Speaker: 00:03:19

and when I did, I found that incredibly rewarding and I

Speaker: 00:03:22

almost had this epiphany and said, oh, my God, this is what I want to

Speaker: 00:03:25

do. This is such a privilege to lead people and

Speaker: 00:03:27

I want that responsibility. So for the last 15 years of my

Speaker: 00:03:30

career, I led large teams across the UK and Africa.

Speaker: 00:03:34

And I left partly because 27 years

Speaker: 00:03:37

was long enough. I was nudging 50.

Speaker: 00:03:40

>> Wo0: No, you ain't.

Speaker: 00:03:41

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah, stop it. and I thought, I don't want

Speaker: 00:03:44

to spend my life, you know, so I thought there's more I could

Speaker: 00:03:47

do. So I set up Wiley to help other leaders lead with

Speaker: 00:03:50

purpose, and compassion,

Speaker: 00:03:53

and started trading in 2021.

Speaker: 00:03:56

My work is now still focused on leadership.

Speaker: 00:03:59

I spent an awful lot of time in the kind of the, gender

Speaker: 00:04:02

space as well. And that comes back from me kind of, you know,

Speaker: 00:04:05

I started to educate myself again a little

Speaker: 00:04:07

bit by accident, and I just thought, oh, my God, I spent

Speaker: 00:04:10

51 years as a man just not knowing these things.

Speaker: 00:04:13

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:04:13

>> Jeremy Stockdale: So, so, yeah, so that's, that's what I do.

Speaker: 00:04:16

Leadership, inclusive leadership, but with a particular

Speaker: 00:04:19

focus and a passion around, around gender.

Speaker: 00:04:22

>> Wo0: Amazing. Thank you.

Speaker: 00:04:25

And thank you.

Speaker: 00:04:29

So let's talk about a little bit about

Speaker: 00:04:32

what you do to support women.

Speaker: 00:04:35

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah, it's a very, it's a really good question because,

Speaker: 00:04:38

I think to say, oh, I do this and I do that could, could sound

Speaker: 00:04:41

very performative. I think I'll probably go back a little bit

Speaker: 00:04:44

to say, because in my, I used to think,

Speaker: 00:04:47

in my corporate career, I used to think I was one of the good Guys.

Speaker: 00:04:50

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:04:50

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Because, because I, I sponsored mentored women. I got

Speaker: 00:04:53

a good gender balance in my team. I could see there were some

Speaker: 00:04:56

differences and some, some ways that women showed up

Speaker: 00:04:59

differently for men. Didn't quite understand why. I just noticed that's

Speaker: 00:05:02

what it was and I did what I could to change

Speaker: 00:05:05

that and I got involved in female talent programmes, all of

Speaker: 00:05:08

those kind of things. But about nearly

Speaker: 00:05:11

four years ago now, something happened that just kind of made me

Speaker: 00:05:13

realise that I just hadn't done enough because I just didn't know

Speaker: 00:05:16

enough. And it was like, oh my God. I

Speaker: 00:05:19

just, I didn't know. I did not know. So

Speaker: 00:05:23

what I've been doing over the last four years is

Speaker: 00:05:25

primarily educating myself to understand things.

Speaker: 00:05:28

So I've read lots, I've watched lots and I've spoken to

Speaker: 00:05:31

hundreds of women. So I now I sleep. They're

Speaker: 00:05:34

stupid, basically.

Speaker: 00:05:35

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:05:36

>> Jeremy Stockdale: And, and I think what that enables me to do is

Speaker: 00:05:39

to show up in a different way, to be more mindful of

Speaker: 00:05:42

the way I behave, the things I say.

Speaker: 00:05:45

And I'm now at a point where I'm trying to do is to advocate

Speaker: 00:05:48

for different things, but I think you have to do the work on yourself first.

Speaker: 00:05:51

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:05:51

>> Jeremy Stockdale: And then you can start to actually take some different action

Speaker: 00:05:55

to move forward and then get to a point where what

Speaker: 00:05:58

I'm trying to do is advocate for

Speaker: 00:06:01

equality of opportunity for women

Speaker: 00:06:04

and for non binary people. And so basically people that

Speaker: 00:06:07

don't necessarily have the sheer weight of

Speaker: 00:06:10

privilege that I recognise I have.

Speaker: 00:06:13

>> Wo0: Amazing. I've got a couple of questions. What was

Speaker: 00:06:16

the thing that happened?

Speaker: 00:06:20

What was the thing that happened?

Speaker: 00:06:24

>> Jeremy Stockdale: So it was when, it's back in

Speaker: 00:06:26

2021 when, when Sara Everard was

Speaker: 00:06:30

abducted, raped and murdered

Speaker: 00:06:33

by a serving police officer. I think most

Speaker: 00:06:36

people were struck by just the, not that that event wasn't

Speaker: 00:06:38

unusual, but the fact it was a police officer. I think

Speaker: 00:06:41

what I noticed with it was, I mean, obviously like most

Speaker: 00:06:44

people, I was horrified by what happened, but it was just the reaction of women

Speaker: 00:06:47

that struck me, just the anger and

Speaker: 00:06:50

frustration that we

Speaker: 00:06:53

can never be safe. I mean, Sara was doing everything

Speaker: 00:06:55

that women know they should do, shouldn't have to,

Speaker: 00:06:59

to keep themselves safe. She's walking home along a well

Speaker: 00:07:01

lit street. She was on the phone, she had her keys in her

Speaker: 00:07:04

hand, all the things you're supposed to do and she still wasn't safe.

Speaker: 00:07:08

and so I was really struck by not only the reaction,

Speaker: 00:07:11

but then how the women were treated in the media

Speaker: 00:07:13

and by the police, people designed to

Speaker: 00:07:16

protect them. Punish them again when they did the vigil.

Speaker: 00:07:19

And I spoke to quite a few women at the time, and one

Speaker: 00:07:22

I, spoke to, I said, what. What can I do to be a

Speaker: 00:07:25

better male ally? How can I show up in a different way? And she said,

Speaker: 00:07:28

read two books. And the two books were Everyday

Speaker: 00:07:31

Sexism by Laura Bates, Visible Women by

Speaker: 00:07:34

Caroline Credo Perez. And I read

Speaker: 00:07:37

them both, and they just blew my

Speaker: 00:07:40

mind. I thought. I had

Speaker: 00:07:43

no idea. I just didn't know. I know

Speaker: 00:07:46

sexism exists. I, know that there are parts

Speaker: 00:07:49

of the world, you know, things that are designed by men for men, but the

Speaker: 00:07:52

sheer scale of that, what women and girls have

Speaker: 00:07:55

to go through every day just to keep themselves safe, just, that

Speaker: 00:07:58

doesn't even cross her mind. I don't have to think about those

Speaker: 00:08:00

things. I, just

Speaker: 00:08:03

had no idea. And one of the stats that

Speaker: 00:08:06

Caroline shares, which I often share when I talk to people, because it's

Speaker: 00:08:09

extraordinary that it was true, but it's still true, is that

Speaker: 00:08:12

women are 47% more likely to suffer a serious

Speaker: 00:08:15

injury in a road traffic accident,

Speaker: 00:08:17

which is in cars today, still are designed

Speaker: 00:08:20

around the male body.

Speaker: 00:08:22

>> Wo0: they. They have just. They have

Speaker: 00:08:25

not long started using female crash test

Speaker: 00:08:28

dummies, but only in the passenger seat.

Speaker: 00:08:33

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yes. Because. Do women drive

Speaker: 00:08:36

now?

Speaker: 00:08:37

>> Buckers: some of them do.

Speaker: 00:08:38

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Wow.

Speaker: 00:08:39

>> Wo0: Joe. Joe Phillips's talk that she does. And.

Speaker: 00:08:42

And that's where I learned that.

Speaker: 00:08:43

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:08:43

>> Wo0: start. Joe Phillips's talk that she does

Speaker: 00:08:46

is the most amazing talk that I've ever

Speaker: 00:08:49

seen in my life. She. I

Speaker: 00:08:52

don't. I'm not gonna ruin it. But

Speaker: 00:08:55

the first thing she's like, right, everybody take a selfie.

Speaker: 00:08:58

Pay your hand, pat your hand up and take a selfie. How

Speaker: 00:09:01

many, like, men struggled with that? How many women struggle

Speaker: 00:09:04

with that? Because phones are made for men. This is made for

Speaker: 00:09:07

men. That's made for men. The things that are made for

Speaker: 00:09:10

men without women in mind, like

Speaker: 00:09:14

a, bulletproof vest in the police force

Speaker: 00:09:17

is not made with women and their breasts in

Speaker: 00:09:20

mind. The most ridiculous one.

Speaker: 00:09:23

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Right.

Speaker: 00:09:24

>> Wo0: Is HRT or the pill

Speaker: 00:09:28

are not tested on females. They're

Speaker: 00:09:31

tested on males because their

Speaker: 00:09:34

hormones change too much

Speaker: 00:09:38

to get a

Speaker: 00:09:40

reading. Basically.

Speaker: 00:09:42

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:09:45

>> Wo0: What the.

Speaker: 00:09:47

>> Jeremy Stockdale: I know.

Speaker: 00:09:49

>> Wo0: The medication that we take

Speaker: 00:09:52

to stop being impregnated by a

Speaker: 00:09:55

penis or to stop

Speaker: 00:09:58

having spots or to get. Stop having a

Speaker: 00:10:01

backache periods, not

Speaker: 00:10:04

have pain.

Speaker: 00:10:04

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:10:05

>> Wo0: All of it is. Is just. Is. Is

Speaker: 00:10:07

tested on men.

Speaker: 00:10:10

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Wow. I. I didn't know that. The

Speaker: 00:10:13

stab. Best one I did know is I. I met a,

Speaker: 00:10:16

she was. She was on a panel talking about the menopause,

Speaker: 00:10:20

and she was about to retire as a detective inspector in the police force. And we

Speaker: 00:10:23

got chatting after. I thought she was amazing. So I hung around to fanboy and just,

Speaker: 00:10:26

you're brilliant. Have a chat. and she told me this dad

Speaker: 00:10:29

vest thing that, you know, they're now

Speaker: 00:10:32

unisex, but I don't know if anyone's

Speaker: 00:10:34

noticed. You may have done, but women's anatomies are

Speaker: 00:10:37

quite different, aren't they?

Speaker: 00:10:38

>> Wo0: Especially mine.

Speaker: 00:10:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:10:49

>> Jeremy Stockdale: So.

Speaker: 00:10:49

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:10:50

>> Jeremy Stockdale: So things like that, I just thought I. Oh, my God. So

Speaker: 00:10:53

what happened with that is that, It just made me

Speaker: 00:10:56

more curious. I thought. I meant again, maybe being at stage

Speaker: 00:10:59

in my life where I sort of. I don't know, liberated

Speaker: 00:11:02

from the shackles of a corporate career, I was discovering

Speaker: 00:11:05

lots of different things. And so since then, I've

Speaker: 00:11:07

read many, many more books and I've

Speaker: 00:11:10

spoken to hundreds of women. As I said before, I now sleep. They're stupid.

Speaker: 00:11:13

I'm still learning all the time. Of course, that was the thing for me,

Speaker: 00:11:16

that was the. The catalyst was that event.

Speaker: 00:11:19

Reading some stuff that then has now made me

Speaker: 00:11:22

wildly curious about these things. But also it was interesting.

Speaker: 00:11:25

It's maybe more curious about the world. Yeah, I'm just

Speaker: 00:11:28

interested in different things now, far more than I ever

Speaker: 00:11:30

was before, you know, so

Speaker: 00:11:33

that was the catalyst. Tragic.

Speaker: 00:11:37

>> Wo0: Absolutely tragic event.

Speaker: 00:11:40

second question I had out of that. Being an ex

Speaker: 00:11:43

recruiter and having had a recruitment company,

Speaker: 00:11:47

you said that you were doing all of these things

Speaker: 00:11:50

on your corporate life to help and support

Speaker: 00:11:53

women.

Speaker: 00:11:53

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:11:54

>> Wo0: Do you think what, you know now

Speaker: 00:11:56

there was anything else that you could have done? Oh,

Speaker: 00:11:59

like. Like, yeah. If. If you're.

Speaker: 00:12:02

If there's a CEO, a male CEO listening

Speaker: 00:12:05

or a male manager, what could they

Speaker: 00:12:08

do that isn't on their tick box

Speaker: 00:12:12

list to help support women

Speaker: 00:12:15

in the workplace?

Speaker: 00:12:17

>> Jeremy Stockdale: There are so many things, but I'll give a couple

Speaker: 00:12:20

that come to mind straight away. I think the

Speaker: 00:12:23

easiest one, in many ways, I think, is just to

Speaker: 00:12:26

start to notice what goes on, start to notice

Speaker: 00:12:29

what happens around you. Because what you tend to do

Speaker: 00:12:32

is, as a man in a very masculine

Speaker: 00:12:35

environment with most workplaces are. Is.

Speaker: 00:12:38

Is you don't notice these things. You just kind of

Speaker: 00:12:41

go through it, but just notice how. What, what

Speaker: 00:12:44

happens? What's the dynamic in, in the room, who's

Speaker: 00:12:47

speaking, who's getting interrupted,

Speaker: 00:12:50

who's. Who's dominating the conversation.

Speaker: 00:12:53

and just start to observe things.

Speaker: 00:12:56

that's. That's one of the first things. And you know,

Speaker: 00:12:59

speak to women and, and ask them and then listen,

Speaker: 00:13:02

you know, she's kind of, you know, then

Speaker: 00:13:05

provide your manly views. It's like genuinely show

Speaker: 00:13:07

curiosity and how different people experience the workplace

Speaker: 00:13:11

and dart and dig deep to find out what they really

Speaker: 00:13:13

think. Take that information on board and then

Speaker: 00:13:16

go out and observe it. That that's one of the, the first things

Speaker: 00:13:19

I'd say that. But that takes time to do. But that would be a,

Speaker: 00:13:23

an obvious one. A very practical thing

Speaker: 00:13:26

that I only become come to realise recently how important

Speaker: 00:13:29

it is, is is actually properly sponsoring

Speaker: 00:13:32

women. So people often get confused with

Speaker: 00:13:35

terms of sponsoring, mentoring, coaching, whatever, whatever those

Speaker: 00:13:37

different things are. But I've

Speaker: 00:13:40

seen you maybe have heard the phrase a few times that women are over

Speaker: 00:13:43

mentored under sponsored and.

Speaker: 00:13:45

>> Wo0: Okay.

Speaker: 00:13:46

>> Jeremy Stockdale: And it's absolutely true, they are. I mean the amount

Speaker: 00:13:48

of women that I know that, that we, we

Speaker: 00:13:51

provide mentors for women in the workplace as part of female talent

Speaker: 00:13:54

programmes, those kind of things. Women are often

Speaker: 00:13:57

mentored but are rarely

Speaker: 00:14:00

sponsored.

Speaker: 00:14:01

>> Wo0: So what's the difference between a sponsor and a mentor then?

Speaker: 00:14:04

>> Jeremy Stockdale: What a mentor does, it provides you with a

Speaker: 00:14:06

place where you can get advice and guidance from typically someone more

Speaker: 00:14:09

experienced than you or someone that knows more about the topic you're trying

Speaker: 00:14:12

to explore. So you can have reverse mentoring as well. But typically mentoring is

Speaker: 00:14:15

a more senior experienced person who you can

Speaker: 00:14:18

go to for advice and guidance in a safe environment. So

Speaker: 00:14:21

that's, that's what mentoring is. So it's kind of like an advisory

Speaker: 00:14:24

thing, a support thing. Sponsoring is someone

Speaker: 00:14:27

actually advocating for you. So it's. And that

Speaker: 00:14:30

typically will happen when you're not in a room. It might m.

Speaker: 00:14:32

Be but it's then a sponsor, someone that will

Speaker: 00:14:35

invite you to a meeting to present to something and give you air time and

Speaker: 00:14:38

give you the opportunity and the space. When

Speaker: 00:14:41

you're in a meeting talking about talented people,

Speaker: 00:14:44

you're advocating for that person because you know how brilliant they are.

Speaker: 00:14:48

And so, and there's been quite a lot of research

Speaker: 00:14:50

conducted into, into this and I, I feel it's one of the, it's one

Speaker: 00:14:53

of the biggest things organisations to do.

Speaker: 00:14:56

Stop, stop trying to fix women, stop doing mentoring. Actually

Speaker: 00:14:59

get, get leaders understanding how to sponsor

Speaker: 00:15:02

people and not just sponsor people that look like them.

Speaker: 00:15:06

Yeah. What I realised is that through my career,

Speaker: 00:15:09

you know, I kind of, you know, progressed relatively quickly in the first 10

Speaker: 00:15:12

years in, in my corporate career and I look back now

Speaker: 00:15:15

and realise that I got organic sponsorship

Speaker: 00:15:18

all the Time and typically from

Speaker: 00:15:21

older men, older white men who would see a little bit

Speaker: 00:15:24

of themselves in me as a youngster, bright young

Speaker: 00:15:27

thing, and they would help

Speaker: 00:15:30

me progress. They would. And they would talk about me in

Speaker: 00:15:33

meetings. Oh, yeah, he's a good lad, this one. And, you know, we always give.

Speaker: 00:15:36

You know, that was happening for me, but

Speaker: 00:15:39

it doesn't happen in the same way for women. It

Speaker: 00:15:42

really doesn't. So I think sponsoring women and knowing how

Speaker: 00:15:45

to do that, I think is a. Is a really practical thing

Speaker: 00:15:47

that senior men can do.

Speaker: 00:15:50

>> Wo0: Yeah, I, I did used to get sponsored

Speaker: 00:15:53

as a woman, but I was a woman

Speaker: 00:15:56

pretty much pretending to be a man.

Speaker: 00:15:59

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Like, that's another fascinating thing.

Speaker: 00:16:01

>> Wo0: Yeah, I, I don't know if you've ever noticed, but I'm

Speaker: 00:16:04

not the most delicate flower.

Speaker: 00:16:11

And I think I've always taken that,

Speaker: 00:16:14

like, Especially the humour

Speaker: 00:16:17

thing, I think is a protection, like

Speaker: 00:16:20

from the trauma. Trauma makes us hilarious.

Speaker: 00:16:23

Certainly made me hilarious as a protection thing.

Speaker: 00:16:27

Like, I've got the worst, darkest, most

Speaker: 00:16:30

disgusting humour I can. Out

Speaker: 00:16:33

to anybody.

Speaker: 00:16:34

>> Jeremy Stockdale: She does as a challenge. We

Speaker: 00:16:37

should get together a drink sometime and just see what happens.

Speaker: 00:16:40

>> Wo0: Let's do it.

Speaker: 00:16:43

So, yeah, so I. So I did get put

Speaker: 00:16:45

forward for promotions and stuff like that, but because

Speaker: 00:16:48

I was Bolshy and had the dark

Speaker: 00:16:51

humour and, you know, they could

Speaker: 00:16:55

see that I wasn't a little girl.

Speaker: 00:16:58

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah. So. So I think that's. For me, that's a

Speaker: 00:17:01

really fascinating topic because I'm

Speaker: 00:17:04

trying about the best way of kind of tackling it, because it's quite a broad one.

Speaker: 00:17:06

But the simple thing is that because

Speaker: 00:17:09

most environments, workplace environments, are overtly,

Speaker: 00:17:12

masculine. Everyone knows the rules of the game.

Speaker: 00:17:15

Everyone knows in order to get on, you've got to be assertive,

Speaker: 00:17:18

you've got to be. You've got to be tough, you've got to be confident, you've

Speaker: 00:17:21

got to be. You've got to take up space, you've got to be logical,

Speaker: 00:17:24

disciplined, all of those kind of things.

Speaker: 00:17:26

We kind of also know that things like being

Speaker: 00:17:29

vulnerable, compassionate and kind and intuitive

Speaker: 00:17:32

are valuable, but you don't overplay them.

Speaker: 00:17:35

Kind of. You exercise the caution because you know

Speaker: 00:17:38

that assertiveness is really. Is really important.

Speaker: 00:17:41

So what I've seen happen is that in order for

Speaker: 00:17:45

women in particular to

Speaker: 00:17:48

progress in the workplace, they have to. They

Speaker: 00:17:51

have to dial down some natural

Speaker: 00:17:54

feminine traits and dial up some. Some

Speaker: 00:17:57

masculine ones. So. Which is not. Is neither

Speaker: 00:17:59

authentic and. And I think it. I also. From m. Speaking

Speaker: 00:18:02

to many of them, it's quite exhausting so

Speaker: 00:18:05

they, they will get to senior positions, they will get there.

Speaker: 00:18:09

But they might get to a point in their sort of 40s,

Speaker: 00:18:12

50s, when they're at the peak of their powers and they, they just

Speaker: 00:18:15

done, they, they burn out the amounts I've heard

Speaker: 00:18:18

say. I

Speaker: 00:18:21

can't do that. They go off and. Do they go off and form

Speaker: 00:18:24

their own organisations and help other women show up

Speaker: 00:18:26

authentically and help them to be.

Speaker: 00:18:29

>> Wo0: Yes, we do really are

Speaker: 00:18:32

valuable and.

Speaker: 00:18:32

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Important, but what a loss to the

Speaker: 00:18:35

workplace. I also find it quite poignant and that's what you have

Speaker: 00:18:38

to do because I even look back at my own career and think that

Speaker: 00:18:41

even I kind of had ticked every single box of privilege.

Speaker: 00:18:44

I still conformed in many, many ways. I don't anymore

Speaker: 00:18:47

and it's liberating. You don't have to, but, but it was

Speaker: 00:18:50

so much easier for me just to be myself.

Speaker: 00:18:53

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:18:54

>> Jeremy Stockdale: I also know that when I know a number of women that I

Speaker: 00:18:57

know went on female talent programmes a few years ago, 10,

Speaker: 00:19:00

15 years ago, they may have evolved since then, but I bet they haven't

Speaker: 00:19:02

completely. And what you're taught in order to get on

Speaker: 00:19:05

you have to be, you know, you have to take

Speaker: 00:19:08

up more space, you got to, you got to dress a certain way, you've got to project

Speaker: 00:19:11

your voice in a certain way. you know that

Speaker: 00:19:14

in other words, you got to behave a bit like a

Speaker: 00:19:17

man. One of the big things that

Speaker: 00:19:20

Barclays used to talk about, who I work for, that all the time,

Speaker: 00:19:23

what leaders need is gravitas.

Speaker: 00:19:25

So first of all, what the fuck is gravitas? What the fuck is

Speaker: 00:19:28

gravitas?

Speaker: 00:19:29

>> Wo0: Gravitas. I have a bit of psych about you.

Speaker: 00:19:33

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah. Yeah. If you're with a deep

Speaker: 00:19:35

voice, kind of easy to have gravitas. I had a friend of mine who

Speaker: 00:19:38

was a peer, who was absolutely brilliant, but

Speaker: 00:19:41

she was five foot nothing, had quite a high pitched

Speaker: 00:19:44

voice, a regional accent.

Speaker: 00:19:47

How do I do gravitas then? And of course

Speaker: 00:19:50

you don't do gravitas. What you do is you do you. Because

Speaker: 00:19:53

you're brilliant. But she was having to kind of

Speaker: 00:19:56

adjust and conform and be something

Speaker: 00:19:59

that she wasn't just to get to, the next level.

Speaker: 00:20:01

>> Wo0: But then she'll get told that she's got a little woman

Speaker: 00:20:04

syndrome or little lady syndrome or

Speaker: 00:20:07

whatever it is because she's small and she's having to be.

Speaker: 00:20:10

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:20:11

>> Jeremy Stockdale: And that's why it's so unfair because that's the tightrope the women

Speaker: 00:20:14

walk when they.

Speaker: 00:20:14

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:20:15

>> Jeremy Stockdale: So I, we We know we've got to be assertive and tough and

Speaker: 00:20:18

confident, but you don't want to be too assertive because it'll be called bossy. and

Speaker: 00:20:21

you don't want to be too tough because then you'd be called A

Speaker: 00:20:24

M. In 30, over 30 years of

Speaker: 00:20:27

working, I've never once heard a man called either

Speaker: 00:20:30

bossy or a bitch. In fact, the kind of

Speaker: 00:20:33

things that would get you labelled, that as a woman I

Speaker: 00:20:36

got celebrated for.

Speaker: 00:20:37

>> Buckers: Yeah. Get you promoted.

Speaker: 00:20:39

>> Wo0: It's like the whore thing, right, isn't it? Like, if women

Speaker: 00:20:41

sleeps with lots of men, she's a slut. If men

Speaker: 00:20:44

sleep with lots of women, they're a hero.

Speaker: 00:20:48

Well, I'm a bloody hero.

Speaker: 00:20:51

>> Buckers: This reminds me of the America Ferreira,

Speaker: 00:20:54

speech in the Barbie movie.

Speaker: 00:20:59

>> Wo0: I've got adhd, I've seen it, but I can't remember, yeah.

Speaker: 00:21:01

>> Buckers: Where she's kind of, oh, there's no way I'd even be able to do it

Speaker: 00:21:04

justice. But she's, it's just like a five minute,

Speaker: 00:21:07

maybe even more speech, where

Speaker: 00:21:10

she's talking to Barbie and she's like, she's

Speaker: 00:21:13

calling out really like the

Speaker: 00:21:15

hypocrisy of women have got to be pretty but not too pretty.

Speaker: 00:21:18

And like all of.

Speaker: 00:21:19

>> Wo0: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:21:20

>> Buckers: Reminds me of what Grammy was saying.

Speaker: 00:21:22

>> Jeremy Stockdale: And I think the thing is, for me again, I didn't experience any of

Speaker: 00:21:25

this and now I'm learning it. I, can only begin to imagine without

Speaker: 00:21:28

actually having experienced it. But it's the, it's the

Speaker: 00:21:31

mental load, it's the, it must be

Speaker: 00:21:33

exhausting in the same way that all the

Speaker: 00:21:36

things that women have to do to just to keep themselves safe, you

Speaker: 00:21:39

know, I get, can I get in a lift with that man?

Speaker: 00:21:42

Will I be safe walking down that street?

Speaker: 00:21:45

It's that just mental load.

Speaker: 00:21:50

>> Wo0: It's interesting though because like

Speaker: 00:21:53

Jimmy, come here.

Speaker: 00:21:57

>> Buckers: Jimmy is the epitome of the

Speaker: 00:21:59

patriarchy, just shouting all over our conversation.

Speaker: 00:22:02

>> Wo0: It's interesting though because I,

Speaker: 00:22:05

I, I guess we automatically do those things

Speaker: 00:22:09

so it doesn't knocker us out as much.

Speaker: 00:22:12

Which also leads me onto

Speaker: 00:22:15

toxic masculinity.

Speaker: 00:22:18

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:22:20

>> Wo0: Because men are

Speaker: 00:22:23

told that they need to be one way or another,

Speaker: 00:22:26

you know, don't, don't cry, don't show your emotions. You've got

Speaker: 00:22:29

to be strong, you know, carried

Speaker: 00:22:31

women's shopping, etc.

Speaker: 00:22:34

Etc. And,

Speaker: 00:22:37

and we were talking about this before. I think that

Speaker: 00:22:40

toxic masculinity is been

Speaker: 00:22:44

understood wrong. Can you explain what toxic

Speaker: 00:22:47

masculinity is and what it's not Jeremy for us.

Speaker: 00:22:50

>> Jeremy Stockdale: okay, so I'll be honest. One of those terms which I think

Speaker: 00:22:53

had initially had some, some meaning but

Speaker: 00:22:56

now it's, it's just been hijacked and I think it's not

Speaker: 00:22:58

to use a term myself, it's just unhelpful. Toxic

Speaker: 00:23:01

masculinity is for me is when

Speaker: 00:23:04

masculinity is displayed in a,

Speaker: 00:23:08

an unhelpful and unsafe, inappropriate

Speaker: 00:23:10

way. now that can be displayed by, by all

Speaker: 00:23:13

genders. You know, men that can show toxic

Speaker: 00:23:16

masculinity. Masculinity isn't something that just men do.

Speaker: 00:23:19

Masculinity is an energy alongside

Speaker: 00:23:21

femininity. We all have both.

Speaker: 00:23:23

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:23:24

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Varying degrees.

Speaker: 00:23:25

>> Wo0: I do.

Speaker: 00:23:26

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah. I mean when I when I started to

Speaker: 00:23:29

realise that I had access to feminine energies and

Speaker: 00:23:32

dial those up more consciously, it may be a much better leader, much better

Speaker: 00:23:35

person. We all have access to them but we are

Speaker: 00:23:37

conditioned from a very early age to

Speaker: 00:23:41

go down certain routes. It happens around about the age of six or seven

Speaker: 00:23:44

and that's when people start to kind of go down these very gendered routes

Speaker: 00:23:47

due to, you know, the way we're socialised.

Speaker: 00:23:50

So toxic masculinity for me is when people display

Speaker: 00:23:53

masculinity in a, in a, in a way that is like to

Speaker: 00:23:56

be harmful to other people. and it could be things

Speaker: 00:23:59

like. Just a simple example is

Speaker: 00:24:02

for me of toxic masculinity which is easily avoidable

Speaker: 00:24:05

is if you're a man. I mean I'm a six foot

Speaker: 00:24:08

man. I'm quite broad. So if I sit on a,

Speaker: 00:24:11

sat. Now actually if I sit on a train where the seats are often

Speaker: 00:24:14

quite narrow and I spread my legs and I

Speaker: 00:24:17

take up half of the next person's seat, for me that would

Speaker: 00:24:20

be toxic masculinity.

Speaker: 00:24:22

>> Buckers: Why do men do that?

Speaker: 00:24:24

>> Wo0: Because they want to take us. I, I

Speaker: 00:24:27

disagree with this.

Speaker: 00:24:28

>> Buckers: Comfortable or something?

Speaker: 00:24:30

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Well, I'm doing it now but I, I think

Speaker: 00:24:33

so potentially. But

Speaker: 00:24:36

the, the flip side of that is what now I'm aware of, of

Speaker: 00:24:39

that and, and the fact I have a busy. If I'm sat next to

Speaker: 00:24:42

a woman, I'm likely to have a bigger physical presence than

Speaker: 00:24:45

her. So I can just take up that space and,

Speaker: 00:24:48

and more than I'm entitled to, I can think actually you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna share the

Speaker: 00:24:51

space with her and I will typically now just

Speaker: 00:24:53

inch a little bit further away from the edge of my seat so that

Speaker: 00:24:56

I know I'm not going to be encroaching upon her. So toxic

Speaker: 00:24:59

masculinity, I think, is either you do that

Speaker: 00:25:02

unconsciously, but particularly if you do it consciously, you kind of

Speaker: 00:25:04

impose your space.

Speaker: 00:25:07

My daughter used to do this hilarious thing where she would walk up to

Speaker: 00:25:10

me, and just sort of basically sort of

Speaker: 00:25:13

thrust her crotch in my face. And she got up to me go,

Speaker: 00:25:16

all right, dad?

Speaker: 00:25:21

She put her arms.

Speaker: 00:25:22

>> Wo0: I love her.

Speaker: 00:25:25

>> Jeremy Stockdale: I love her noises. And, it

Speaker: 00:25:27

was so funny, but in a way that kind of encapsulates it.

Speaker: 00:25:30

Because now, of course, there's really overt forms of

Speaker: 00:25:33

toxic masculinity as well, which is things like cat calling and

Speaker: 00:25:36

it's, you know, and that's just sort of real misogyny.

Speaker: 00:25:39

I think the problem with toxic masculinity is that the

Speaker: 00:25:42

way it's been interpreted by many people in. In the media and

Speaker: 00:25:45

a lot of people on the receiving end of it is that masculinity

Speaker: 00:25:48

is toxic. And it's not.

Speaker: 00:25:51

>> Wo0: See, I. I have got

Speaker: 00:25:53

this. I completely disagree with all of that. I

Speaker: 00:25:56

don't think that's toxic, toxic masculinity.

Speaker: 00:25:59

I think toxic

Speaker: 00:26:02

masculinity is against the men

Speaker: 00:26:04

themselves. They feel that they have to be a

Speaker: 00:26:07

certain way, like toxic positivity. If you are

Speaker: 00:26:10

too positive and you think of all this positive stuff. I used to

Speaker: 00:26:13

have this. And don't allow yourself to feel the negative or

Speaker: 00:26:16

feel sad or anything like that. It's.

Speaker: 00:26:20

I like a man. It's toxic

Speaker: 00:26:23

masculinity that he feels that he

Speaker: 00:26:26

can't cry, so he holds it in and that that is

Speaker: 00:26:29

toxic to him. I think

Speaker: 00:26:31

that the. What you've just

Speaker: 00:26:34

described is something completely different.

Speaker: 00:26:36

But that. But because the words

Speaker: 00:26:39

toxic and masculine are,

Speaker: 00:26:42

used, that's now been used against men.

Speaker: 00:26:45

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah, I think. I think you're right. I don't think those are perhaps the best

Speaker: 00:26:48

examples I use. And I completely agree what you're saying. I think the whole point

Speaker: 00:26:51

about, I mean, patriarchy will probably get on to. But

Speaker: 00:26:54

toxic masculinity is damaging for society.

Speaker: 00:26:57

It's damaging for men and for women. It shows up very

Speaker: 00:26:59

strongly for women when. When men display

Speaker: 00:27:02

their masculinity in a toxic way, as it does when

Speaker: 00:27:05

women display it as well. It shows up people around

Speaker: 00:27:08

them. but it also is harmful. It's

Speaker: 00:27:11

really harmful to men. So things like not being able to show

Speaker: 00:27:14

your emotions, not being able to admit when you're

Speaker: 00:27:16

struggling, not, being able to show vulnerability,

Speaker: 00:27:19

that's damaging for those around you, but also

Speaker: 00:27:22

for yourself, which, I mean, I certainly know that.

Speaker: 00:27:25

So now, I think you're right to kind of disagree with those

Speaker: 00:27:28

examples, but I think the biggest thing I'd say about it is that

Speaker: 00:27:31

I'm really comfortable with my masculinity.

Speaker: 00:27:34

>> Wo0: Yeah, me too.

Speaker: 00:27:35

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Than I've ever happened before. Exactly. But I'm also

Speaker: 00:27:38

really comfortable and embrace my femininity.

Speaker: 00:27:41

yeah. And I think that the more people realise you can

Speaker: 00:27:44

have both, you don't have to choose one according to

Speaker: 00:27:47

the sex you were. You were born with. You don't

Speaker: 00:27:50

have to do that. You can, you can have both and display

Speaker: 00:27:53

them when it's appropriate.

Speaker: 00:27:55

>> Wo0: Yeah. Or just do whatever you bloody want. Like

Speaker: 00:27:59

you mentioned patriarchy. Let's talk about it.

Speaker: 00:28:03

Okay. I, When we were talking, I was talking

Speaker: 00:28:06

to a lot of people about female 5

Speaker: 00:28:08

million and the don't tell me what to wear or how to run my

Speaker: 00:28:11

business project. And

Speaker: 00:28:14

women were like, I really want to be involved in this. But

Speaker: 00:28:19

the patriarchy as it did get coined by Lois, as

Speaker: 00:28:21

she said. She sent the email out calling this the, the patriarchy

Speaker: 00:28:24

shoot. I was like, lois, that's not what it's called.

Speaker: 00:28:27

Women came back to that email and they're like,

Speaker: 00:28:30

that doesn't align with my brand because

Speaker: 00:28:33

I work with men.

Speaker: 00:28:35

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:28:36

>> Wo0: And I, and, and I was like that patriarchy

Speaker: 00:28:38

does. This doesn't mean men.

Speaker: 00:28:41

>> Jeremy Stockdale: No, no.

Speaker: 00:28:42

>> Wo0: As much as we like doing that, it doesn't mean,

Speaker: 00:28:45

it doesn't mean like, we hate men. Get rid of

Speaker: 00:28:48

them. Can you explain what the patriarchy is for everybody?

Speaker: 00:28:51

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah. So I, I don't know whether it's a helpful,

Speaker: 00:28:54

helpful term or not. I'll come on to a second wire, kind of write a bit about it.

Speaker: 00:28:57

But the patriarchy is, is a,

Speaker: 00:29:01

a sort of a societal system.

Speaker: 00:29:04

Structures, norms and behaviours,

Speaker: 00:29:07

the things that govern society that

Speaker: 00:29:10

are, overtly masculine.

Speaker: 00:29:13

That it theoretically at least

Speaker: 00:29:16

might seem to favour men, but actually are damaging for society.

Speaker: 00:29:19

They're things that limit us all, they constrain us,

Speaker: 00:29:22

they stop us from making progress. That's, what, that's what

Speaker: 00:29:25

the patriarchy is. So it's a quite a nebulous concept for

Speaker: 00:29:28

me.

Speaker: 00:29:29

>> Wo0: Nebulous, yeah.

Speaker: 00:29:32

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Good word, doesn't it? The, the, the, the, the

Speaker: 00:29:34

definition in the dictionary is something like the rule of the

Speaker: 00:29:37

father. So it's where you have a, where men are

Speaker: 00:29:40

what most of positions of power and women are largely excluded from

Speaker: 00:29:43

it. I don't think those definitions are particularly helpful, but for me

Speaker: 00:29:46

it's systems and structures that are limiting for

Speaker: 00:29:49

people of all genders.

Speaker: 00:29:51

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:29:51

>> Jeremy Stockdale: What it really is about the patriarchy, for me, is just to sum up, it's

Speaker: 00:29:54

about power. It's about power structures. So you see

Speaker: 00:29:57

that where the patriarchy operates, it's keeping the

Speaker: 00:30:00

very, very tiny percentage of people less than 1%

Speaker: 00:30:03

in power and keeping everyone else

Speaker: 00:30:06

without that power. But what they do, what the patriarchy does

Speaker: 00:30:09

very cleverly, is it gets us fighting against each other.

Speaker: 00:30:12

>> Wo0: Yeah, 100%. Like, even

Speaker: 00:30:16

by using the word, it gets us fighting against each other.

Speaker: 00:30:19

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yes.

Speaker: 00:30:20

>> Wo0: And. And what, What. How do you feel about the

Speaker: 00:30:22

patriarchy, Jeremy? What do

Speaker: 00:30:25

you do on. What do you do on a Wednesday, Jeremy?

Speaker: 00:30:28

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Question. It's the middle of the week and what I do is I

Speaker: 00:30:31

smash it. So the backstory is

Speaker: 00:30:34

that such a great. I write a

Speaker: 00:30:37

post on a Wednesday that starts off with a lot. Every week

Speaker: 00:30:40

on Wednesdays, you smash the patriarchy. And it started

Speaker: 00:30:43

off because my daughter, who I mentioned earlier on, who I think

Speaker: 00:30:45

spends as a lot of fun in taking.

Speaker: 00:30:48

>> Wo0: What's her name?

Speaker: 00:30:49

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Phoebe.

Speaker: 00:30:50

>> Wo0: Hi, Phoebe.

Speaker: 00:30:53

>> Jeremy Stockdale: she has a T shirt that says, on Wednesdays you smash the

Speaker: 00:30:56

patriarchy. Had it for a few years and she used to wear it around

Speaker: 00:30:58

Bristol Uni and, you know, often got. It was a bit of a talking points.

Speaker: 00:31:01

Why Persuaders. Let me take a little picture, and write a

Speaker: 00:31:04

post about it. Do a little interview with, my. The

Speaker: 00:31:07

third question, why. Why Wednesdays? And I loved her answer that, which

Speaker: 00:31:10

was, it's my quietest day.

Speaker: 00:31:13

So she had this tea, I wrote about it and it got a really nice reaction. So the following

Speaker: 00:31:16

week I thought, I'll follow up and just write about, well, let's now look at how

Speaker: 00:31:19

the patriarchy is damaging for women. And then the

Speaker: 00:31:22

following week I wrote about how it's damaging for men. And it

Speaker: 00:31:25

just continued from there. I just carried on writing about it

Speaker: 00:31:28

because of the reaction I got. So now I've been. It'll

Speaker: 00:31:31

be two years. I've been writing them in May

Speaker: 00:31:34

and I've learned so much from doing it.

Speaker: 00:31:37

I mean, I learn every single week. Not everyone agrees with me

Speaker: 00:31:40

and that's absolutely fine. I actually want more people just. That's

Speaker: 00:31:43

good people dissenting, more people challenging my views

Speaker: 00:31:46

because it helps me to learn. I've met some amazing people from

Speaker: 00:31:49

doing it and it's got quite a following.

Speaker: 00:31:51

So, So, yeah, it's something that I. I just

Speaker: 00:31:54

do every Wednesday. And because I fundamentally

Speaker: 00:31:57

believe. Because I started off really, because I've been on my sort of journey, journey of

Speaker: 00:32:00

thinking, oh, my God, I didn't know. I need to do more to help

Speaker: 00:32:03

women. I've now realised how the

Speaker: 00:32:06

patriarchy as a system, as a structure

Speaker: 00:32:08

is, is really damaging for men. I've reflected

Speaker: 00:32:11

on how it's kind of.

Speaker: 00:32:12

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:32:13

>> Jeremy Stockdale: And held me back throughout my life and

Speaker: 00:32:16

I'm now trying to unlearn certain things, you know, as well

Speaker: 00:32:19

as learn new things. But it's, it's, it holds people

Speaker: 00:32:22

back. It really does. And I think you make a really good point about

Speaker: 00:32:25

how much it holds back men. I think we've really elected men

Speaker: 00:32:28

and a lot of this stuff and, and it's not a zero

Speaker: 00:32:30

sum game. Well, we know.

Speaker: 00:32:34

Yes, we. There's loads of things we need to do to make things fairer and,

Speaker: 00:32:37

and create equal opportunities for women and non binary

Speaker: 00:32:40

people and all kinds of people from sort of

Speaker: 00:32:43

marginalised groups. But it doesn't,

Speaker: 00:32:46

it's not at the expense of men.

Speaker: 00:32:48

>> Wo0: No.

Speaker: 00:32:48

>> Buckers: Yes.

Speaker: 00:32:49

>> Wo0: No, it's not the expense of men. and

Speaker: 00:32:52

God, I might get some hate for this

Speaker: 00:32:55

but Go for it. Like men are getting quite a lot of at the

Speaker: 00:32:57

moment. Like I understand that

Speaker: 00:33:00

we've had a lot of forever. Women have had forever.

Speaker: 00:33:05

But men, I feel,

Speaker: 00:33:09

I think this is going to be really like people are going to hate

Speaker: 00:33:12

this. Like. No, I'm not gonna say it. I'm too

Speaker: 00:33:15

scared.

Speaker: 00:33:15

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Well, okay, I'll say it for you. So I, I completely

Speaker: 00:33:18

agree. What I've realised is that men m. Are

Speaker: 00:33:21

suffering too. and, and

Speaker: 00:33:24

you can have that conversation. You can absolutely

Speaker: 00:33:26

highlight those things. It doesn't take space away

Speaker: 00:33:29

from women any, any more than when I kind of write a

Speaker: 00:33:32

post about something that women experience and then someone comes on, says,

Speaker: 00:33:35

well, what about men?

Speaker: 00:33:36

>> Wo0: It's like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:33:38

>> Jeremy Stockdale: I just feel like the other one.

Speaker: 00:33:41

>> Wo0: Oh God. Like. But it is,

Speaker: 00:33:44

but it is always Ben. But it's not always.

Speaker: 00:33:46

Yeah. Anyway, I feel like, I

Speaker: 00:33:49

feel like it's a. Men,

Speaker: 00:33:52

Men are like teetering on this

Speaker: 00:33:55

really tight rope of.

Speaker: 00:33:58

Am I allowed to talk to somebody?

Speaker: 00:34:00

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:01

>> Wo0: Am I allowed to make friends? Am I allowed to

Speaker: 00:34:03

flirt with. No. Do

Speaker: 00:34:06

I, do I know like

Speaker: 00:34:09

100%. Don't tell a woman to smile.

Speaker: 00:34:12

Don't wolf whistle at a woman. But if you are both

Speaker: 00:34:15

in a bar, I think it's,

Speaker: 00:34:18

I think, I don't know. I think it's just really

Speaker: 00:34:21

difficult for men to now at the

Speaker: 00:34:23

moment navigate how to do things.

Speaker: 00:34:27

What are you saying, buckers?

Speaker: 00:34:29

>> Buckers: You think it's difficult for men to speak to women

Speaker: 00:34:32

with respect like they're human beings?

Speaker: 00:34:36

>> Wo0: No, I'm not saying that. Ah. I'm saying

Speaker: 00:34:38

I knew I'd get. I'm saying that I'm gonna give it.

Speaker: 00:34:41

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:43

>> Wo0: Men. Men don't know how.

Speaker: 00:34:46

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:47

>> Buckers: Why don't they know?

Speaker: 00:34:49

>> Wo0: Because they. But because they're getting it the same

Speaker: 00:34:52

world as us. No, they haven't. And I agree

Speaker: 00:34:55

with that. I agree that we've had it really.

Speaker: 00:35:00

>> Buckers: I'm like.

Speaker: 00:35:06

>> Jeremy Stockdale: I need to get back.

Speaker: 00:35:07

>> Buckers: In my box and know my place.

Speaker: 00:35:10

>> Wo0: I am not for any second

Speaker: 00:35:13

saying that men have not had it easy.

Speaker: 00:35:16

I'm not saying for a second that we've

Speaker: 00:35:19

not had it hard. Yeah. I am just saying at ah, the

Speaker: 00:35:22

moment. I think

Speaker: 00:35:25

the. If. God, if Emily was here, she'd be. She'd be

Speaker: 00:35:28

coming on it. I think that they are

Speaker: 00:35:30

just needing to learn

Speaker: 00:35:33

how to do things and that's okay.

Speaker: 00:35:37

>> Buckers: I think what you're saying.

Speaker: 00:35:38

>> Wo0: I think.

Speaker: 00:35:38

>> Buckers: I think what you're saying or what I'm understanding from what you're saying is

Speaker: 00:35:41

that men are no longer, Or

Speaker: 00:35:44

those men who actually want to

Speaker: 00:35:47

exist in a society in a respectful way with

Speaker: 00:35:50

women and have relationships, are scared to.

Speaker: 00:35:53

Are now no longer able to enjoy the luxury

Speaker: 00:35:56

of being able to not think

Speaker: 00:35:59

through what they're saying before they say it.

Speaker: 00:36:01

>> Wo0: No, I don't think it's even that.

Speaker: 00:36:03

>> Buckers: Put a bit more effort into the way that they conduct themselves. Themselves.

Speaker: 00:36:07

>> Wo0: I think people aren't talking because they're scared that

Speaker: 00:36:10

they're gonna get jumped on.

Speaker: 00:36:13

>> Buckers: As in attacked for. As in. As in.

Speaker: 00:36:16

>> Wo0: As in don't talk to me. I'm a female.

Speaker: 00:36:20

I don't know.

Speaker: 00:36:22

>> Jeremy Stockdale: I think you're both right because what we try to do with

Speaker: 00:36:25

most deeply, deeply complex things that have

Speaker: 00:36:28

got systemic foundations going back centuries is. Is

Speaker: 00:36:31

gone. Is simplified. That's the answer. You know,

Speaker: 00:36:34

that's what we try and do. It's not. It's really, really

Speaker: 00:36:37

nuanced. And lots of things can coexist.

Speaker: 00:36:40

>> Wo0: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:42

>> Jeremy Stockdale: These things all coexist. I think one, I heard

Speaker: 00:36:45

something on a podcast a few months ago.

Speaker: 00:36:48

Trevor Noah was talking about it. And the

Speaker: 00:36:50

framing that I thought was spot on. That what's happened over the last 70

Speaker: 00:36:53

years or so is, is women have progressed

Speaker: 00:36:56

in many, many, many ways from a really fundamental

Speaker: 00:36:59

things like just getting the vote 100 years ago to.

Speaker: 00:37:02

To know you suddenly see women in senior positions running

Speaker: 00:37:05

countries. Over the last 70s. Women have made a lot of progress

Speaker: 00:37:08

still nowhere near enough. We, we know all know that. But what

Speaker: 00:37:10

they've done is they've moved into spaces that were previously

Speaker: 00:37:14

reserved just for men. So, so women have

Speaker: 00:37:17

evolved in that way. What hasn't happened, I don't

Speaker: 00:37:19

think is that men have evolved in the

Speaker: 00:37:22

opposite direction. Men have, haven't gone through the same kind

Speaker: 00:37:25

of transformation in order to sort of start to,

Speaker: 00:37:28

you know, again, maybe embrace more kind

Speaker: 00:37:31

of communal type energies or feminine energies. They have, they haven't

Speaker: 00:37:34

done that in the same way. And and I think so for

Speaker: 00:37:37

someone like me that's 55 now,

Speaker: 00:37:40

been around the block a few times, read a few things,

Speaker: 00:37:43

I can be quite comfortable with it and I can reflect back on my own

Speaker: 00:37:46

advantages and privileges without kind of feeling, without my ego being

Speaker: 00:37:49

damaged. Okay, well I understand that now. It's

Speaker: 00:37:51

really hard if you're a young man that hasn't

Speaker: 00:37:54

really grown up with that same sense of Privilege. You're a 29 year

Speaker: 00:37:57

old white guy in, in

Speaker: 00:38:00

Melbourne as one I know and I've had conversations with and we

Speaker: 00:38:03

started talking as he started slagging off my posts and then I kind of said

Speaker: 00:38:06

actually I'm quite interested in your view chat. We did. And he's a

Speaker: 00:38:09

lovely guy. And, and so what he's, he

Speaker: 00:38:11

hasn't grown up with the level of privilege that I've had. He has

Speaker: 00:38:14

definitely got unearned privilege. He's not aware of.

Speaker: 00:38:17

>> Jeremy Stockdale: But compared to some of the disadvantages he's experienced,

Speaker: 00:38:20

you know. And of course what I realised in terms of my.

Speaker: 00:38:23

Do I have, do I have male privilege? 100%

Speaker: 00:38:26

white privilege? Absolutely. But what really

Speaker: 00:38:29

enables my privilege to have come to the fore

Speaker: 00:38:32

in my life isn't those things fundamentally

Speaker: 00:38:34

it's the fact that when I was younger I

Speaker: 00:38:37

passed 11 plus I went to grammar school and then when my

Speaker: 00:38:40

dad's job move, I ended up going to quite a posh school where my

Speaker: 00:38:43

parents didn't have to pay. So I got, so I got access to a whole

Speaker: 00:38:46

load of opportunities and a sense of

Speaker: 00:38:49

achievement around me. I went to uni, I got a job on

Speaker: 00:38:52

a grass scheme and my life was set. I had a completely

Speaker: 00:38:55

different life than what my parents had because the opportunities I had.

Speaker: 00:38:58

So my, it was a social mobility, my

Speaker: 00:39:00

socioeconomic background and that privilege that

Speaker: 00:39:03

enabled me to leverage the privilege I've got. If you tell

Speaker: 00:39:06

a guy from Middlesbrough

Speaker: 00:39:09

who's white and male, in his

Speaker: 00:39:12

40s, working hard for a living, sometimes it can

Speaker: 00:39:15

be difficult, it's not always had work, lives in

Speaker: 00:39:18

a kind of a, you know, place in quite a tough part of

Speaker: 00:39:20

Middlesbrough and tell him he's got white male privilege,

Speaker: 00:39:23

he'll tell you to off.

Speaker: 00:39:25

>> Wo0: Yeah, I like going

Speaker: 00:39:28

back to, like, if I

Speaker: 00:39:31

meet a guy, I will automatically

Speaker: 00:39:34

assume that he's nice. Nice.

Speaker: 00:39:37

That's just the way I am. I used to not be the same

Speaker: 00:39:40

until they give me

Speaker: 00:39:43

or say something or. I mean,

Speaker: 00:39:46

hell, me and my mates were at Glastonbury and I literally

Speaker: 00:39:49

pulled them up on every single piece of

Speaker: 00:39:51

male thing that they did. Yeah. They were like. I was like,

Speaker: 00:39:54

let's. The. The thing is that way, they're like, no, it's not. It's that way. I was

Speaker: 00:39:57

like, that's okay. Let's just ignore the woman who knows that. Like,

Speaker: 00:40:00

I was literally on them the whole time.

Speaker: 00:40:03

They got so pissed off. And I was like,

Speaker: 00:40:06

I'm gonna stop now because I can see it's like really, really

Speaker: 00:40:09

pissing you off. But can you not even see for a second

Speaker: 00:40:12

that this is. I'm just telling you what you do to us?

Speaker: 00:40:15

Yeah, but I. I don't know.

Speaker: 00:40:18

I feel like I haven't

Speaker: 00:40:21

eloquented my point.

Speaker: 00:40:24

I feel like I haven't got it across. but we've

Speaker: 00:40:26

also got four minutes till the next person comes in.

Speaker: 00:40:29

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Oh, crikey.

Speaker: 00:40:30

>> Buckers: We need a part two.

Speaker: 00:40:32

>> Wo0: We need a part two. Can we do that?

Speaker: 00:40:34

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah, I'd love to. She's such good fun. Fun.

Speaker: 00:40:36

>> Wo0: We.

Speaker: 00:40:36

>> Jeremy Stockdale: I mean, I could do this as often.

Speaker: 00:40:37

>> Buckers: I've got so many questions written down. We just haven't got.

Speaker: 00:40:40

>> Wo0: Amazing.

Speaker: 00:40:41

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Because I've really loved it.

Speaker: 00:40:42

>> Buckers: I've, just been great.

Speaker: 00:40:43

>> Wo0: It's actually been really good.

Speaker: 00:40:45

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Continue that conversation that you were talking about. Because I. I think what

Speaker: 00:40:48

you're on to is, is how do we

Speaker: 00:40:51

engage men in these debates?

Speaker: 00:40:54

Because, you know, one of the frustrations we have is the world is designed for

Speaker: 00:40:57

50 of the population and the other 51%

Speaker: 00:41:00

actually is. Is. That's not massive. The other 51% is

Speaker: 00:41:02

excluded, and disadvantaged. So we rail against that.

Speaker: 00:41:05

But then how do we fix that? We only include

Speaker: 00:41:08

the 51% of the population. The other 40.

Speaker: 00:41:10

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:41:11

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Fuck off. Stop being toxic. Grow up,

Speaker: 00:41:14

learn.

Speaker: 00:41:15

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:41:15

>> Jeremy Stockdale: And so let's. Let's continue that. The conversation with

Speaker: 00:41:18

that thing is something around. I think your point

Speaker: 00:41:21

is spot on. how do we unpack, that and how do we

Speaker: 00:41:24

engage men? Because actually, one of the things about having me on this is

Speaker: 00:41:26

maybe that might be something that can help if I can serve a useful

Speaker: 00:41:29

purpose as a token white guy.

Speaker: 00:41:33

Oh, my God, Jeremy, you're just.

Speaker: 00:41:36

>> Wo0: Are you mediocre, though? Jeremy, Are you

Speaker: 00:41:38

mediocre?

Speaker: 00:41:40

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Well, no, I'M awesome

Speaker: 00:41:42

now. Yeah, you are awesome. There

Speaker: 00:41:45

were times when I I looked at some of my female peers

Speaker: 00:41:49

and thought, you are so good. You're so

Speaker: 00:41:52

good. And yet I'm the one getting the.

Speaker: 00:41:54

>> Wo0: Pull this but if you'd have told them that that then you would have

Speaker: 00:41:57

been a creep. This is

Speaker: 00:42:00

what this is. Anyway,

Speaker: 00:42:03

to be continued.

Speaker: 00:42:04

>> Buckers: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker: 00:42:06

>> Jeremy Stockdale: Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to. Love. Yeah. Please just let me know when you

Speaker: 00:42:09

because it's such good fun. Such good fun.

Speaker: 00:42:11

>> Wo0: Thank you so much.

Speaker: 00:42:12

>> Buckers: Thank you so much, Jeremy.

Speaker: 00:42:15

>> Wo0: That's it for today's episode of Don't Tell Me what to

Speaker: 00:42:18

Wear. How to Run My Business on the Woo Pod with me,

Speaker: 00:42:21

Wendy Gannon. This is more than just a podcast.

Speaker: 00:42:24

It's part of female 5 million. Head to the link in

Speaker: 00:42:27

the show notes to find out more about our movement to empower women.

Speaker: 00:42:31

If this episode spoke to you in any way, made you laugh,

Speaker: 00:42:33

made you cry, or maybe inspired you, share

Speaker: 00:42:36

it with a friend who needs to hear it. Leave us a rating and a

Speaker: 00:42:39

review and let's keep this movement growing.

Speaker: 00:42:43

And while I've got you here, my photography is the way that I

Speaker: 00:42:46

fight back against the patriarchy. I empower female

Speaker: 00:42:48

founders with the confidence to be themselves in their business,

Speaker: 00:42:51

to really enjoy their photo shoot and actually

Speaker: 00:42:54

love their photos so then they can grow their business,

Speaker: 00:42:57

increase their prices, and get paid what they deserve.

Speaker: 00:43:01

If you want to work with me, drop me a message. All the info

Speaker: 00:43:04

you need to contact me is in the show notes. Until next

Speaker: 00:43:07

time, keep doing you and remember, you are part of

Speaker: 00:43:10

something bigger than Bye.