How Women Can Get Promoted and Paid What They Deserve – Career Coach Jo Phillips on Confidence, Pay Gaps, and Leadership

Speaker: 00:00:00

>> Wo0: Welcome to Don't Fucking Tell Me what to Wear or How to

Speaker: 00:00:03

run My Business. This is the

Speaker: 00:00:05

Woopod.

Speaker: 00:00:07

>> Jo Phillips: When you look at the need to have women and

Speaker: 00:00:10

women actually in leadership roles, what

Speaker: 00:00:13

we would add to the economy is

Speaker: 00:00:15

122 trillion.

Speaker: 00:00:18

>> Wo0: I'm your host, Wendy Gannon, but most.

Speaker: 00:00:20

>> Wo0: People call me Woo.

Speaker: 00:00:21

>> Wo0: I'm a photographer, adhder, female

Speaker: 00:00:24

advocate, and let's be honest, an all round fucking

Speaker: 00:00:26

legendary.

Speaker: 00:00:27

>> Wo0: Can you tell I didn't write this script?

Speaker: 00:00:33

>> Wo0: This podcast is part of Female5Million, a

Speaker: 00:00:35

movement founded to empower women to step the up,

Speaker: 00:00:38

take control and unapologetically own their

Speaker: 00:00:41

space. It all started

Speaker: 00:00:44

with some fucking Jebin's LinkedIn post

Speaker: 00:00:47

spouting some sexist bullshit about how women should dress

Speaker: 00:00:50

to succeed in business. And you know what?

Speaker: 00:00:52

Stuff like that really fucks me

Speaker: 00:00:55

off.

Speaker: 00:00:56

>> Wo0: It really fucks me off.

Speaker: 00:00:58

>> Wo0: So I posted about it and that post ignited

Speaker: 00:01:01

something bigger. A nationwide photography project,

Speaker: 00:01:04

a full blown fucking movement. And now this

Speaker: 00:01:07

podcast here on the Woopod,

Speaker: 00:01:10

we're raising the voices of women who refuse to be told what to

Speaker: 00:01:12

do. Women who are done playing by the rules and are now

Speaker: 00:01:15

saying, don't fucking tell me what to wear or how to run my

Speaker: 00:01:18

business. If you've ever been told to tone it down,

Speaker: 00:01:21

dress more appropriately or. Or run your business like a

Speaker: 00:01:24

man, fuck that.

Speaker: 00:01:27

Expect raw, unfiltered conversations with women

Speaker: 00:01:30

who have fought through sexism, abuse and

Speaker: 00:01:32

outdated patriarchal bullshit to build success on their terms.

Speaker: 00:01:35

all whilst wearing whatever the fuck they want.

Speaker: 00:01:38

Oh, and there's more swearing than our producer is willing to

Speaker: 00:01:41

beep out.

Speaker: 00:01:42

>> Wo0: Sorry, buckers.

Speaker: 00:01:44

>> Wo0: Speaking of which, you'll probably hear me ask producer

Speaker: 00:01:47

Bacchus to chime in from time to time, because like

Speaker: 00:01:49

I give.

Speaker: 00:01:50

>> Wo0: A shit what she says.

Speaker: 00:01:51

>> Wo0: We've both got adhd.

Speaker: 00:01:52

>> Wo0: We bounce well off each other. Deal with it.

Speaker: 00:01:55

>> Wo0: We're here to celebrate women doing business their way and shine

Speaker: 00:01:58

a spotlight on the incredible ways women are fighting back and lifting

Speaker: 00:02:01

each other up. Because, to be honest, that's what it's all

Speaker: 00:02:04

about. And, for those who aren't able to speak up

Speaker: 00:02:07

right now for whatever reason. I

Speaker: 00:02:10

see you.

Speaker: 00:02:12

Okay, let's crack on then.

Speaker: 00:02:20

>> Wo0: Hi, Jo Phillips. Welcome to the Woo

Speaker: 00:02:23

pod.

Speaker: 00:02:23

>> Wo0: Can you tell everybody what

Speaker: 00:02:26

you do?

Speaker: 00:02:28

>> Wo0: And then, why did you get involved with female 5

Speaker: 00:02:30

million?

Speaker: 00:02:31

>> Jo Phillips: Firstly, thank you so much for having me. I love

Speaker: 00:02:34

seeing you. Woo. I love it. Thank

Speaker: 00:02:36

you.

Speaker: 00:02:37

>> Wo0: I love you so much. I love you so much.

Speaker: 00:02:41

>> Jo Phillips: What people don't know is that we run towards each other when

Speaker: 00:02:44

we see each Other with ourselves.

Speaker: 00:02:47

>> Wo0: Like that old yellow page. Was it a yellow page? Is that. Yeah. Or a

Speaker: 00:02:50

flake or something? Yeah. On the hill.

Speaker: 00:02:52

>> Jo Phillips: So if people were to look me up online, they would look me up and they

Speaker: 00:02:55

will find me as Jo Phillips, the woman behind the women.

Speaker: 00:02:58

And all the work I do, everything I

Speaker: 00:03:01

do is about helping women to close their

Speaker: 00:03:04

pay gap, gain a promotion or

Speaker: 00:03:07

find a new role. And I guess

Speaker: 00:03:10

my journey started. I started

Speaker: 00:03:13

out in the recruitment sector at the age of 19,

Speaker: 00:03:17

real male dominated sector and I

Speaker: 00:03:19

know it. And one of my first

Speaker: 00:03:21

experiences was working

Speaker: 00:03:24

in a tech agency

Speaker: 00:03:27

where we were male

Speaker: 00:03:29

dominated, where

Speaker: 00:03:33

everything was about, your only worth was about the

Speaker: 00:03:36

amount of money that you'd put on the board.

Speaker: 00:03:39

And woe betide you if

Speaker: 00:03:42

you were louder, if you

Speaker: 00:03:45

spoke your mind, if you pushed

Speaker: 00:03:47

back, with authority. And it was never

Speaker: 00:03:50

the case that I ever wanted to push back

Speaker: 00:03:52

unnecessarily, but there were so many times where

Speaker: 00:03:55

I would use my voice and it would be shot down.

Speaker: 00:03:58

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:03:59

>> Jo Phillips: But yet there were others who didn't have their

Speaker: 00:04:01

voices shut down.

Speaker: 00:04:03

>> Wo0: Did they have a penis?

Speaker: 00:04:04

>> Jo Phillips: Thank you. Yes.

Speaker: 00:04:09

And you know, I'm actually not about,

Speaker: 00:04:11

I'm actually not about man bashing.

Speaker: 00:04:14

>> Wo0: Oh 100% actually.

Speaker: 00:04:16

>> Jo Phillips: What we need is male allyship. In fact, the only way

Speaker: 00:04:19

that we will reach equality is to work on the

Speaker: 00:04:22

equity and we need allies to help

Speaker: 00:04:25

us to level up. That's what we need. And so, I'm not about

Speaker: 00:04:28

man bashing. I've got a son, I'm raising a boy. But

Speaker: 00:04:30

part of my journey and part of the reason that I do what I now do

Speaker: 00:04:33

today was because when I

Speaker: 00:04:36

then moved on from that technical agency and that was, that was putting

Speaker: 00:04:39

engineers out to work and draughtsmen as they were called

Speaker: 00:04:42

at the time. And I love, I

Speaker: 00:04:45

was a female really in a, it was a male

Speaker: 00:04:48

dominated landscape. And so I

Speaker: 00:04:51

went to work for another recruitment agency and at

Speaker: 00:04:54

the time they would have been a really big one. They're not anymore, they've been

Speaker: 00:04:57

swallowed by another name.

Speaker: 00:05:00

But there was only a couple of ways that you could get

Speaker: 00:05:02

promoted in this other agency in the next place I

Speaker: 00:05:05

went. So bear in mind, I'm now very

Speaker: 00:05:08

early twenties and one of the ways to get

Speaker: 00:05:11

promoted was to go to this party.

Speaker: 00:05:16

>> Wo0: Oh God.

Speaker: 00:05:18

>> Jo Phillips: So you could do that.

Speaker: 00:05:21

>> Wo0: Fuck's sake, man. I didn't know

Speaker: 00:05:24

that.

Speaker: 00:05:25

>> Jo Phillips: So you could go to the party and that would

Speaker: 00:05:28

mean that you would get promoted

Speaker: 00:05:31

or you could crush your targets. Well,

Speaker: 00:05:34

I was crushing My targets, crushing

Speaker: 00:05:36

them. Because I was raised in a lone

Speaker: 00:05:39

parent family where the money narrative was always a

Speaker: 00:05:42

no, there was never. And now that doesn't mean that it was a

Speaker: 00:05:44

bad upbringing. It wasn't. we had a lovely upbringing,

Speaker: 00:05:47

but from a point of view of, was there always meals out

Speaker: 00:05:50

or big holidays or, you know.

Speaker: 00:05:53

No, there wasn't. It was a lone parent family and everybody had to

Speaker: 00:05:56

pull their weight. And so

Speaker: 00:05:59

I was motivated to earn, from a really

Speaker: 00:06:02

young age, why I didn't go to uni, I

Speaker: 00:06:05

wanted to earn. I didn't want the narrative to sit around me that

Speaker: 00:06:08

I couldn't earn and that I couldn't progress in my

Speaker: 00:06:10

career. And so at this next

Speaker: 00:06:13

agency, you either go to this party

Speaker: 00:06:16

and get yourself promoted or you

Speaker: 00:06:19

find another route. And I thought,

Speaker: 00:06:22

I'm going to find myself another route

Speaker: 00:06:25

because I'm not into this. This is not. It doesn't work for me. And

Speaker: 00:06:28

yet I'd seen a number of other people where

Speaker: 00:06:30

it did work for them.

Speaker: 00:06:34

So I then went on to work for Adeco, which is the

Speaker: 00:06:36

world's largest agency. And

Speaker: 00:06:39

I'm now in a position whereby, again, crushing my

Speaker: 00:06:42

targets, living my dream. Every time I

Speaker: 00:06:45

turn around, the women that I'm placing

Speaker: 00:06:48

are being lowballed. I'm finding women

Speaker: 00:06:51

work, they're taking work, but they're being

Speaker: 00:06:53

lowballed. And anybody that I'm helping to find

Speaker: 00:06:56

work can't quite find their

Speaker: 00:06:59

ability to really sell themselves. The amount of interview

Speaker: 00:07:02

prep I had to do with them was unreal. It would take

Speaker: 00:07:04

me an hour to prep them for interview, to make sure that they sold

Speaker: 00:07:07

themselves.

Speaker: 00:07:10

Anyway, so then. So that's all going really well. And I

Speaker: 00:07:13

then, find that they keep sending me people to train

Speaker: 00:07:15

and I love it, really enjoying it. And I've got

Speaker: 00:07:18

a team and they're sending me people. And

Speaker: 00:07:21

then the, director of training says

Speaker: 00:07:24

to me, look, we've got a number of people who are

Speaker: 00:07:27

working in the L and D department. They're all

Speaker: 00:07:29

qualified, but actually not one of them

Speaker: 00:07:32

has run a desk.

Speaker: 00:07:35

We know you have, and you've led a team. Do you want to come to head

Speaker: 00:07:38

office? And I thought, in for a penny, in for a pound, don't mind if I do.

Speaker: 00:07:41

London, Birmingham, let's have some fun. So off I

Speaker: 00:07:44

go.

Speaker: 00:07:46

Hundreds and hundreds of recruiters in their sales academy.

Speaker: 00:07:49

And I love it, love it. But what's coming to

Speaker: 00:07:52

me the whole time is these stories again. Women

Speaker: 00:07:55

being lowballed, women accepting lowball offers,

Speaker: 00:07:58

their clients not promoting women

Speaker: 00:08:01

and then the female sellers,

Speaker: 00:08:04

so the females that I'm training are also then saying, you know what Jo,

Speaker: 00:08:07

this is really hard when you've got to walk into a male dominated

Speaker: 00:08:10

environment and I'm not sure what to wear and I'm

Speaker: 00:08:13

not sure how to handle myself and I've had this happen to me and this said

Speaker: 00:08:16

to me, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:08:19

So all of this is going on in the background for me but don't forget I'm

Speaker: 00:08:22

still young and I'm still learning myself and I

Speaker: 00:08:25

still are girl. It's very true.

Speaker: 00:08:29

And I think you know, you either earning or you're

Speaker: 00:08:32

learning and at that point I was

Speaker: 00:08:35

starting to earn but still really felt I've got so much more

Speaker: 00:08:38

to learn. So anyway, so I then go

Speaker: 00:08:41

off and this is where the real

Speaker: 00:08:43

story starts which is where I go off and I work for

Speaker: 00:08:46

a privately owned n national

Speaker: 00:08:49

organisation and I can't name them

Speaker: 00:08:52

but I can only tell you that

Speaker: 00:08:55

legally when they lift NDAs, it's going to be a wonderful

Speaker: 00:08:58

book. That

Speaker: 00:09:01

is if, that is if I had an NDA. If

Speaker: 00:09:04

I had an NDA.

Speaker: 00:09:06

Okay, it would be a

Speaker: 00:09:09

wonderful book. That's an if.

Speaker: 00:09:12

>> Wo0: Who are the women that you're working with now?

Speaker: 00:09:15

>> Jo Phillips: So I work now with women all

Speaker: 00:09:18

over the globe and they're usually in the

Speaker: 00:09:21

top. My private clients are usually in around the

Speaker: 00:09:24

top 1% of earners and you would think that that would

Speaker: 00:09:27

be a huge amount of money.

Speaker: 00:09:32

It's nowhere near what you would assume it to be.

Speaker: 00:09:35

>> Wo0: Now I kind of know

Speaker: 00:09:38

because I used to have a recruitment company

Speaker: 00:09:41

and actuarial so like quite higher

Speaker: 00:09:44

this. So I kind of know what that

Speaker: 00:09:46

figure should be and what that

Speaker: 00:09:49

figure is and it's,

Speaker: 00:09:52

it's ridiculous.

Speaker: 00:09:54

>> Jo Phillips: And you know the gap, in fact we

Speaker: 00:09:57

went back 2% last year

Speaker: 00:10:00

in terms of the pay gap. We back became

Speaker: 00:10:02

broader.

Speaker: 00:10:03

>> Wo0: How?

Speaker: 00:10:04

>> Jo Phillips: Well there's a number of factors but you

Speaker: 00:10:07

know the challenge that we've got is, is that when you

Speaker: 00:10:10

look at, when you look at the

Speaker: 00:10:13

need to have women and women actually

Speaker: 00:10:16

in leadership roles so women at the

Speaker: 00:10:19

very top level in the C suite. What we would

Speaker: 00:10:22

add to the economy is 122

Speaker: 00:10:24

trillion.

Speaker: 00:10:28

And we would add that

Speaker: 00:10:31

because the way that women

Speaker: 00:10:33

approach and this is all backed with studies, it's all backed with

Speaker: 00:10:36

research. The way that women approach leadership and the way that women

Speaker: 00:10:39

approach problem solving is usually through an

Speaker: 00:10:42

empathetic and a broad and curious

Speaker: 00:10:44

lens. And that means that we are less likely

Speaker: 00:10:47

to go down the route of well, what we've always

Speaker: 00:10:50

done what we've always done and what we've always done works.

Speaker: 00:10:53

We're more likely to be innovative and.

Speaker: 00:10:54

>> Wo0: Creative or what we've done is what we've always

Speaker: 00:10:57

done, even if what we've done doesn't work.

Speaker: 00:11:02

>> Jo Phillips: And again, again, what I'm not doing here is man bashing.

Speaker: 00:11:05

That's not.

Speaker: 00:11:05

>> Wo0: Yeah, no, like, one of our questions later

Speaker: 00:11:08

is like, because we're not man bashing.

Speaker: 00:11:11

>> Jo Phillips: Yeah, quite. And so, so what we know is,

Speaker: 00:11:13

is that we would add not only a huge

Speaker: 00:11:16

amount financially to the economy, but what we would see

Speaker: 00:11:19

is the ESG agendas. What we

Speaker: 00:11:22

know is that when women are at the top of the tree, when women are in

Speaker: 00:11:25

control, our environmental, our social, our governance agendas

Speaker: 00:11:28

go through the roof.

Speaker: 00:11:29

>> Wo0: What's the ESG agenda?

Speaker: 00:11:31

>> Jo Phillips: So the ESG is all about the environment.

Speaker: 00:11:35

>> Wo0: Okay, so does everybody know that and

Speaker: 00:11:38

I just don't know it?

Speaker: 00:11:39

>> Jo Phillips: Not necessarily. So the E is

Speaker: 00:11:42

environmental, so the E might be around everything

Speaker: 00:11:45

from your carbon emissions to your

Speaker: 00:11:47

contribution to landfill.

Speaker: 00:11:49

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:11:49

>> Jo Phillips: Socialism would be about what does the organisation do and

Speaker: 00:11:52

how does it help.

Speaker: 00:11:55

And your governance piece would again be all about, you know,

Speaker: 00:11:57

what's the visible governance, what's the, what are the

Speaker: 00:12:00

policies, what the procedures, what are we doing for the greater good to

Speaker: 00:12:03

ensure that we're working ethically, morally and all the rest of it.

Speaker: 00:12:06

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:12:06

>> Jo Phillips: So the ESG piece again, women are much more

Speaker: 00:12:09

likely to be honed into and

Speaker: 00:12:12

tuned into. But

Speaker: 00:12:14

what are the reasons that we've gone backwards? Well,

Speaker: 00:12:17

when you look at things like the pipeline report, when you look

Speaker: 00:12:20

at women, in the workplace report that came

Speaker: 00:12:23

from McKinsey and comes out every year. There's three

Speaker: 00:12:26

core areas. So the first is we're seeing a

Speaker: 00:12:29

massive RTO return to office. So we're seeing

Speaker: 00:12:31

organisations the likes of Boots, the likes of

Speaker: 00:12:34

Zoom even. You know, there's plenty of organisations I

Speaker: 00:12:37

know, right. That are pulling people back into the office.

Speaker: 00:12:40

Now really, the only, the only argument for that is their

Speaker: 00:12:43

real estate.

Speaker: 00:12:44

>> Wo0: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:12:45

>> Jo Phillips: Huge, huge offices that are, that.

Speaker: 00:12:48

>> Wo0: Could, that could fuel the homeless.

Speaker: 00:12:50

>> Jo Phillips: Right, exactly that,

Speaker: 00:12:53

exactly that. But of course women, we know that

Speaker: 00:12:56

women will do 3.7 hours, unpaid domestic care

Speaker: 00:12:59

a day versus men's 1.5 hours.

Speaker: 00:13:02

And so what happens for a female is that

Speaker: 00:13:05

she's likely to see self deselect.

Speaker: 00:13:08

What she doesn't want to have to do is that commute in and out of the office

Speaker: 00:13:11

four days a week. It doesn't work around her life anymore. It doesn't work around the

Speaker: 00:13:14

children, it doesn't work around the care responsibilities. Even if she

Speaker: 00:13:16

doesn't have children, she's also much more likely to have a

Speaker: 00:13:19

caring responsibility. So

Speaker: 00:13:22

one of the first reasons that we've gone backwards is this RTO

Speaker: 00:13:25

piece. Okay, this return to office

Speaker: 00:13:28

really has a detrimental effect.

Speaker: 00:13:30

>> Wo0: Makes sense.

Speaker: 00:13:31

>> Jo Phillips: The second piece is around

Speaker: 00:13:33

microaggressions. So

Speaker: 00:13:35

microaggressions have anything but a micro m impact. They have

Speaker: 00:13:38

a macro impact. And so when women are talked

Speaker: 00:13:41

over in the office, when women have

Speaker: 00:13:44

their accomplishments and achievements taken away from

Speaker: 00:13:47

them and somebody else takes the credit for them, one of the challenges

Speaker: 00:13:50

that we see again is that women will isolate. And what we

Speaker: 00:13:53

see around that isolation piece is that they would rather work from

Speaker: 00:13:56

home. Now

Speaker: 00:13:58

here's the rub, right, is actually

Speaker: 00:14:01

better for a female's lifestyle, is better for

Speaker: 00:14:04

her mental health. It's better for her well being for

Speaker: 00:14:07

her to be able to choose her working pattern. And it's likely that she will

Speaker: 00:14:10

look for some sort of flexible, flexible

Speaker: 00:14:12

schedule around everything else that's going on for her, lifestyle

Speaker: 00:14:15

wise. But actually what we also know is that

Speaker: 00:14:18

60% of her career success is down to her exposure

Speaker: 00:14:21

if she hasn't got the opportunity to go into the office or if she's

Speaker: 00:14:24

more likely to isolate. Go on.

Speaker: 00:14:26

>> Wo0: Sorry, sorry. Can you just say that statistic again?

Speaker: 00:14:30

Because this always blows my mind. Like I had not

Speaker: 00:14:32

heard of this until I went to.

Speaker: 00:14:35

I saw you do a presentation like a talk on stage, like

Speaker: 00:14:38

a speech keynote, whatever you want to call it. And can I

Speaker: 00:14:41

say you

Speaker: 00:14:44

bar none, are the best

Speaker: 00:14:47

speaker I've ever seen ever

Speaker: 00:14:51

say hire this woman. But sorry, yeah, so

Speaker: 00:14:54

can you say that statistic again?

Speaker: 00:14:56

>> Jo Phillips: Well, firstly, just to respond to that. Thank you, that's really

Speaker: 00:14:58

exciting. Secondly, you need to get out

Speaker: 00:15:01

more.

Speaker: 00:15:02

>> Wo0: When I take a. I take

Speaker: 00:15:05

a lot of photos of people doing speeches, trust me,

Speaker: 00:15:08

like I was, I was creasing up, I was

Speaker: 00:15:11

on the floor like Kate with all that shit on her.

Speaker: 00:15:14

>> Jo Phillips: But yeah, so what Wendy's referring

Speaker: 00:15:17

to is in my talk we bring to life

Speaker: 00:15:20

the physical invisible

Speaker: 00:15:23

barriers that most people wouldn't even

Speaker: 00:15:26

realise a female faces.

Speaker: 00:15:28

So, we wrap whoever has decided to

Speaker: 00:15:31

be my wonderful volunteer and you're mentioning Kate O'Neill

Speaker: 00:15:34

there. but we will the other day actually with a

Speaker: 00:15:37

client. but yes, we'll wrap you up in a blanket because

Speaker: 00:15:40

of course most offices are really cold for women and

Speaker: 00:15:43

that's because the air conditioning is to the

Speaker: 00:15:46

metabolic resting rate of an average, Middle aged man.

Speaker: 00:15:49

And of course our bodies are cooler because we have eggs to

Speaker: 00:15:52

look after. so we go through all

Speaker: 00:15:55

of the. There's so many different examples. but

Speaker: 00:15:58

going back to the statistic that you just talked to me about,

Speaker: 00:16:01

M so what we know is, is

Speaker: 00:16:03

that our career successful women

Speaker: 00:16:07

can't be based on that usual

Speaker: 00:16:10

ladder. So quite often what

Speaker: 00:16:12

happens for women is we would expect that our promotion path would be

Speaker: 00:16:15

the same as, an atypical man. And again, I'm not

Speaker: 00:16:18

bashing men. What we have to understand is that

Speaker: 00:16:21

women face other barriers.

Speaker: 00:16:23

So let's imagine that we go for interview and

Speaker: 00:16:26

let's imagine that there's a bias and there's a slant around our

Speaker: 00:16:29

responses. Let's imagine that men are promoted on the

Speaker: 00:16:32

basis of their potential and women are promoted on the basis of

Speaker: 00:16:35

their experience.

Speaker: 00:16:38

So now what happens is we're going to need somebody to

Speaker: 00:16:41

sponsor us. We need somebody else to be effectively putting

Speaker: 00:16:44

in the right word for us. And the reason for that is

Speaker: 00:16:47

that very often women are really poor at setting

Speaker: 00:16:50

their impression management. And by impression management, I mean image, I

Speaker: 00:16:53

mean reputation. I mean what's said about you when you're not in the ring.

Speaker: 00:16:57

And 30% of their career success is made up of

Speaker: 00:17:00

what's said about them when they're not in the room.

Speaker: 00:17:03

So the reason that women need this 60%

Speaker: 00:17:06

exposure, they need to be connected, they need to

Speaker: 00:17:08

be out there networking, they need to be having

Speaker: 00:17:11

coffee conversations is because what will happen

Speaker: 00:17:14

is that the more people that know about you

Speaker: 00:17:18

and if you're setting your impression management, if you're setting your image

Speaker: 00:17:21

properly, what you're then going to find is that those two combined

Speaker: 00:17:24

will help you to get to where you want to be. But

Speaker: 00:17:27

we can't follow. There is no longer that traditional ladder

Speaker: 00:17:30

to go up. And the reason for that is there's a broken rung. Men are

Speaker: 00:17:33

promoted at 60% between management and leadership and

Speaker: 00:17:36

women at 40%. So imagine a rung on a

Speaker: 00:17:38

ladder. We, can't get up it. We have

Speaker: 00:17:41

to look at what might be those

Speaker: 00:17:44

lateral opportunities to get to where we want to be

Speaker: 00:17:47

and who are the people that need to know about us in order to get

Speaker: 00:17:50

there because we have a broken rung.

Speaker: 00:17:53

>> Wo0: Blimey, you've got to be so strategic, haven't we?

Speaker: 00:17:56

>> Jo Phillips: Yeah, we've got to be intentional. We've got to be intentional

Speaker: 00:17:59

with our networking, intentional with our contacts and

Speaker: 00:18:01

intentional about the impression management. We've

Speaker: 00:18:04

got to be able to talk about our accomplishments and our Achievements and

Speaker: 00:18:07

do it in a way that we feel comfortable. We've got to be able to set our value

Speaker: 00:18:10

proposition because all too often as women, we

Speaker: 00:18:13

will wait for somebody else

Speaker: 00:18:16

to set that impression. Management.

Speaker: 00:18:18

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:18:20

>> Wo0: So why then, Joe

Speaker: 00:18:22

Phillips, did you get involved with female 5

Speaker: 00:18:25

million?

Speaker: 00:18:26

>> Jo Phillips: Well, one, because you. What's that means that I had two. So that was

Speaker: 00:18:29

fine.

Speaker: 00:18:36

>> Wo0: Okay.

Speaker: 00:18:37

>> Jo Phillips: but for me, for me, we have been

Speaker: 00:18:40

told for decades and decades and decades,

Speaker: 00:18:43

hundreds and hundreds of years, we have been told what to wear

Speaker: 00:18:46

hundreds and hundreds of years. So even if you go back to.

Speaker: 00:18:49

The majority of women's skirts

Speaker: 00:18:52

are not tailored with pockets in. How often

Speaker: 00:18:55

do you buy a skirt and it's got pockets in and you go.

Speaker: 00:18:57

>> Wo0: And you're like, like, it's a

Speaker: 00:19:00

gold. Like, I got a golden

Speaker: 00:19:03

ticket.

Speaker: 00:19:06

>> Jo Phillips: So. But the reason for that is if you go back

Speaker: 00:19:09

to the 1600s, if you go right the way

Speaker: 00:19:11

back to when it was skirts and not dresses, go

Speaker: 00:19:14

right the way back to skirts. Women wouldn't have had

Speaker: 00:19:17

a door key because she wouldn't have been going out

Speaker: 00:19:20

and she wouldn't have needed a pocket for money because she wouldn't have

Speaker: 00:19:23

had money. So

Speaker: 00:19:26

even if it go back that many years, we were told what to

Speaker: 00:19:29

wear. And clothes were designed to keep

Speaker: 00:19:32

us in a certain fashion, but

Speaker: 00:19:35

also to keep us from a very stereotypical perspective

Speaker: 00:19:38

in post, in our jobs, doing what other

Speaker: 00:19:41

people thought we should be doing. And, all the work

Speaker: 00:19:44

I do is all about helping women to be authentically

Speaker: 00:19:46

themselves. So I'm not necessarily in for wearing a

Speaker: 00:19:49

suit or wearing, you know, wear, wear whatever is authentic

Speaker: 00:19:52

for you for work. But I really wanted

Speaker: 00:19:55

to be involved in it because I think at some point this has

Speaker: 00:19:58

to stop. But Surely we're now 20, 25. We're going

Speaker: 00:20:01

into. At some point this has to

Speaker: 00:20:04

stop.

Speaker: 00:20:04

>> Wo0: So I saw a statistic the other day.

Speaker: 00:20:07

If we keep going the way

Speaker: 00:20:10

that we're going, I might get this year wrong. That

Speaker: 00:20:13

we will have equality

Speaker: 00:20:16

in. I can't remember, like

Speaker: 00:20:19

2055 or something. No, no. 20.

Speaker: 00:20:22

>> Wo0: Where are we?

Speaker: 00:20:22

>> Wo0: Where are we? We're 2000.

Speaker: 00:20:26

It was like 150 years. In

Speaker: 00:20:29

150 years time.

Speaker: 00:20:35

So you just said about you think that women should

Speaker: 00:20:38

be able to wear what they want authentically,

Speaker: 00:20:40

be who they are. Which is, as you know,

Speaker: 00:20:43

something that I truly believe in when it comes

Speaker: 00:20:46

to women and their business. I think that

Speaker: 00:20:49

women should, I, mean, obviously

Speaker: 00:20:52

wear what the you want, but I think that you should be.

Speaker: 00:20:55

>> Wo0: Yourself in your business. Well, because you'd attract

Speaker: 00:20:57

people like you.

Speaker: 00:20:58

>> Wo0: And then you can put your prices up because women. Put your

Speaker: 00:21:01

prices up right now, please. You are not charging enough.

Speaker: 00:21:04

And also it's knackering, trying to be

Speaker: 00:21:07

somebody else.

Speaker: 00:21:08

But that leads me beautifully into

Speaker: 00:21:11

you and me working together.

Speaker: 00:21:15

Can you tell us about your, like, your confidence journey

Speaker: 00:21:18

with photos and photo

Speaker: 00:21:20

shoots and putting yourself out there and

Speaker: 00:21:23

stuff?

Speaker: 00:21:24

>> Jo Phillips: Oh, Wendy, you know I don't like having my

Speaker: 00:21:27

photo taken.

Speaker: 00:21:28

>> Wo0: you fucking didn't.

Speaker: 00:21:30

>> Jo Phillips: You know, now I won't strut my way around King's Cross and

Speaker: 00:21:33

have it taken wherever I want, whenever I

Speaker: 00:21:36

want. Ted.

Speaker: 00:21:37

>> Wo0: And the TEDx thing, like, somebody was recording video. She

Speaker: 00:21:40

was like, I'll do it. I was like, what?

Speaker: 00:21:44

So, yeah, like when we first started working together. So

Speaker: 00:21:47

you hired me to do your branding photos over

Speaker: 00:21:50

a year ago. Two years ago.

Speaker: 00:21:53

Blimey.

Speaker: 00:21:54

>> Jo Phillips: When I first started 2023,

Speaker: 00:21:56

2023 was. And I first approached

Speaker: 00:21:58

you in 2023 in the February,

Speaker: 00:22:01

and I knew it was you, that I wanted to do my pictures.

Speaker: 00:22:04

I knew that and I knew that from

Speaker: 00:22:07

the angles that you'd taken. You're the queen of angles and

Speaker: 00:22:10

you're.

Speaker: 00:22:10

>> Wo0: The person that gave me the Queen of Angles title, right?

Speaker: 00:22:13

>> Jo Phillips: Well, you are the queen of angles, right? You turn

Speaker: 00:22:16

around and you're suddenly on the floor upside down with a camera this

Speaker: 00:22:19

way. And it's. And it's going to shoot an angle that I would

Speaker: 00:22:22

never have, that I would never have known to even say to

Speaker: 00:22:24

you, can I have this angle? And so

Speaker: 00:22:27

what had happened between you and I was. We'd booked the shoot in the

Speaker: 00:22:30

February and I cancelled that shoot three

Speaker: 00:22:33

times.

Speaker: 00:22:34

>> Wo0: Three times.

Speaker: 00:22:36

>> Jo Phillips: Three times. And I was so scared. And I was scared

Speaker: 00:22:39

of the. I was scared of being the other end of the

Speaker: 00:22:42

camera. I was scared as to what

Speaker: 00:22:45

other people would think about me.

Speaker: 00:22:47

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:22:48

>> Jo Phillips: Scared about what if they don't, live

Speaker: 00:22:50

up to this? I don't know. What if they don't live up

Speaker: 00:22:53

to what I think I want them to live up to?

Speaker: 00:22:56

What if, what if it goes wrong? What?

Speaker: 00:22:59

It was all these what if, what if, what if what? It's all these

Speaker: 00:23:02

limiting beliefs. And then when we finally got round

Speaker: 00:23:05

to it in the June of

Speaker: 00:23:07

2023.

Speaker: 00:23:08

>> Wo0: We went to February to June and.

Speaker: 00:23:10

>> Wo0: And sorry, at one point we were having calls every

Speaker: 00:23:13

week.

Speaker: 00:23:16

>> Jo Phillips: That is a correct point.

Speaker: 00:23:19

That is absolutely correct. And

Speaker: 00:23:22

I don't think I can argue that. and so when

Speaker: 00:23:25

we did do, what was the hotel called?

Speaker: 00:23:28

>> Wo0: It was. It was number one.

Speaker: 00:23:31

Sake. Menopause.

Speaker: 00:23:33

>> Wo0: Shoreditch.

Speaker: 00:23:34

>> Wo0: One Shoreditch

Speaker: 00:23:36

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:23:37

>> Jo Phillips: And so by the time we got to do the

Speaker: 00:23:39

shoot,

Speaker: 00:23:46

you must have thought, oh, fucking get this over with.

Speaker: 00:23:49

And I was all nervous. But

Speaker: 00:23:53

on the other end of my confidence journey, as

Speaker: 00:23:56

soon as we started working together, fucking

Speaker: 00:23:59

bam. We just. It just

Speaker: 00:24:01

clicked. It just clicked.

Speaker: 00:24:03

And there are some pictures in, in the portfolio that you did for

Speaker: 00:24:06

me that I personally think

Speaker: 00:24:09

are iconic. And I'm not saying that about

Speaker: 00:24:12

me being an icon. I'm saying the pictures that you

Speaker: 00:24:14

took were iconic. I'm not saying I am an icon,

Speaker: 00:24:17

but the pictures are.

Speaker: 00:24:19

>> Wo0: So me and Buckers were literally just talking about

Speaker: 00:24:21

this. Hi, Producer Buckers. We love you.

Speaker: 00:24:24

>> Annabelle: Hello.

Speaker: 00:24:26

>> Wo0: Go on.

Speaker: 00:24:27

>> Jo Phillips: Correction.

Speaker: 00:24:28

>> Annabelle: You're both iconic.

Speaker: 00:24:30

Because I knew

Speaker: 00:24:33

when Wendy told me who we were recording with

Speaker: 00:24:36

today, it was

Speaker: 00:24:39

the. It was describing the photos and showing me

Speaker: 00:24:42

the photos. I. I instantly knew,

Speaker: 00:24:44

oh, her. Because,

Speaker: 00:24:47

like, those photos are

Speaker: 00:24:50

exactly what I picture

Speaker: 00:24:53

when I think about Wendy's photography. And

Speaker: 00:24:56

it was those pictures that I saw when

Speaker: 00:24:59

I first met Wendy, when Wendy was giving a

Speaker: 00:25:01

presentation. And your photos were the

Speaker: 00:25:04

ones that I, my little

Speaker: 00:25:07

BDIs zoomed in on from the back of the

Speaker: 00:25:10

room and.

Speaker: 00:25:10

>> Wo0: I was like, who is

Speaker: 00:25:13

that?

Speaker: 00:25:14

>> Jo Phillips: They are, they're.

Speaker: 00:25:15

>> Annabelle: You're both iconic M model and photographer.

Speaker: 00:25:18

Amazing photo.

Speaker: 00:25:19

>> Wo0: I love you. I love you. She's right. You

Speaker: 00:25:22

are iconic, Jo. And thank

Speaker: 00:25:25

you for saying that. Thank you for

Speaker: 00:25:28

saying that because I am

Speaker: 00:25:31

surprised. That black and white

Speaker: 00:25:34

photo of you that I took in the

Speaker: 00:25:36

corridor,

Speaker: 00:25:39

like, I did the shoots for Meg's the other week and

Speaker: 00:25:42

she was like, this is the best photo if you ever take it. I was like.

Speaker: 00:25:45

And so she was like, this is like, I want it. So

Speaker: 00:25:48

we did a similar one, obviously not the same on

Speaker: 00:25:51

Brighton Seafront. I got like. I

Speaker: 00:25:54

am like, it's so bizarre to me, the

Speaker: 00:25:57

photos that people like compared to the photos that I like. It's so

Speaker: 00:26:00

weird.

Speaker: 00:26:02

>> Jo Phillips: I, don't think people realise.

Speaker: 00:26:05

So, okay, so let's take that. The one in the corridor

Speaker: 00:26:08

of me. I don't think people realise

Speaker: 00:26:11

how quickly

Speaker: 00:26:14

you get the bang

Speaker: 00:26:17

on the spot on picture. And there's something, Wendy,

Speaker: 00:26:20

about your chemistry with the person that you're

Speaker: 00:26:23

taking pictures of. There's something about how you hold the

Speaker: 00:26:25

space for them to make them really relaxed

Speaker: 00:26:28

and that creates a different energy when you're having

Speaker: 00:26:31

your pictures taken. Doesn't feel like,

Speaker: 00:26:34

oh, my God, this is really scary. It feels

Speaker: 00:26:37

like this is really good fun.

Speaker: 00:26:40

>> Wo0: I, love that.

Speaker: 00:26:42

>> Jo Phillips: And I said, there's one. One of my absolute favourites.

Speaker: 00:26:45

It's not about the way that I look. It's just there's something about the

Speaker: 00:26:48

energy of the picture is where you made me look at the floor and then look

Speaker: 00:26:51

up.

Speaker: 00:26:51

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:26:52

>> Jo Phillips: And you've just caught it with my eyes coming up. And

Speaker: 00:26:55

that. That, for me, is one that I. I really love.

Speaker: 00:26:58

And it's not about me. It's not about my face, not about the vanity piece. It's

Speaker: 00:27:00

about the energy in there was. You went, look at the floor. Look

Speaker: 00:27:03

up, click. And we looked at it and we both went.

Speaker: 00:27:11

>> Wo0: I love it, I love it.

Speaker: 00:27:13

>> Jo Phillips: the pink outfit, which was just a skirt and a blouse, an

Speaker: 00:27:16

Amazon skirt, a next blouse, shoes that were

Speaker: 00:27:18

15 years old. And you went to me, sit on there. And I was

Speaker: 00:27:21

like, sit on what? It's not even a thing to sit on

Speaker: 00:27:24

Wednesday. I'm m not sitting on a bike. Like

Speaker: 00:27:27

you. Like you fix bikes to it. And you were like.

Speaker: 00:27:33

She went, sit. And I sat. Click, click, click. And we

Speaker: 00:27:36

were like, okay, now.

Speaker: 00:27:42

>> Wo0: Right, enough about me, because I feel like we're not supposed to

Speaker: 00:27:45

be talking about me. Right.

Speaker: 00:27:47

>> Jo Phillips: I was enjoying it.

Speaker: 00:27:49

>> Wo0: Okay. Thank you very much for the compliments. I love you so

Speaker: 00:27:52

much.

Speaker: 00:27:56

Okay, C.J. like, please

Speaker: 00:27:59

don't feel like you need to do this at all. I want this

Speaker: 00:28:02

to be a safe space for everybody.

Speaker: 00:28:04

but would you be comfortable sharing with some of your experiences

Speaker: 00:28:07

with toxic men? So you can give details if you want

Speaker: 00:28:10

to. It could be things that you've seen

Speaker: 00:28:13

elsewhere happen or anything like that,

Speaker: 00:28:16

trying.

Speaker: 00:28:16

>> Jo Phillips: To figure out which one I want to deliver.

Speaker: 00:28:21

And I think if I take. I am just going to

Speaker: 00:28:24

preface this. This with, I am just going to preface

Speaker: 00:28:27

this with, I now have such a

Speaker: 00:28:30

community of male allies that.

Speaker: 00:28:34

That had I have been. Had I not

Speaker: 00:28:37

have been the woman behind the women, had I not have

Speaker: 00:28:40

got to this junction, I would never have

Speaker: 00:28:42

understood that there were men out there, who don't ever

Speaker: 00:28:45

want you to experience any of this, only ever want to

Speaker: 00:28:48

be upset. Not bystanders would never let

Speaker: 00:28:51

you go through this. If they saw it, they'd call it out.

Speaker: 00:28:54

If they were there, they would make a difference for

Speaker: 00:28:57

you.

Speaker: 00:28:58

>> Wo0: Actually, then let's skip to the next question, and

Speaker: 00:29:01

then we'll come back to this one.

Speaker: 00:29:03

So the next question is, do you have

Speaker: 00:29:06

any positive examples of men showing their support?

Speaker: 00:29:09

Because. Because, like,

Speaker: 00:29:12

even on this journey, I have got so many

Speaker: 00:29:15

men that are really being supportive. And,

Speaker: 00:29:18

like, I've actually not really

Speaker: 00:29:21

had anything negative, really. And

Speaker: 00:29:24

I. And that surprises me, to be honest. But,

Speaker: 00:29:27

yeah, I've had lots of support from men. So. And

Speaker: 00:29:30

I think it's important that we do show everybody that we're not man

Speaker: 00:29:33

bashing. As I said in the trailer, men, you're

Speaker: 00:29:35

sexy. Like, I love you.

Speaker: 00:29:38

So let's, let's celebrate with some great

Speaker: 00:29:41

examples of male support.

Speaker: 00:29:44

>> Jo Phillips: So the allyship community

Speaker: 00:29:46

in, in this space and in the

Speaker: 00:29:49

gendered space is

Speaker: 00:29:51

absolutely awesome. We

Speaker: 00:29:54

have got some people out there who not only

Speaker: 00:29:57

understand the challenges that women face, but have taken it upon

Speaker: 00:30:00

themselves to put themselves out

Speaker: 00:30:02

there to be, to be the

Speaker: 00:30:05

upstanders who, when I'm

Speaker: 00:30:08

struggling, when I've got somebody who's in my DMs,

Speaker: 00:30:10

who's really, really give me a hard

Speaker: 00:30:13

time and I can cope, I can hold my own. I can hold

Speaker: 00:30:16

my own. But there's a point sometimes where

Speaker: 00:30:20

what it really needs is a male ally to explain

Speaker: 00:30:23

the challenges and to explain it in

Speaker: 00:30:26

a way that really

Speaker: 00:30:29

makes people think. Because this is an education piece, right?

Speaker: 00:30:31

For years and years and years, okay, we've done but

Speaker: 00:30:34

behave in one way and they educate.

Speaker: 00:30:37

>> Wo0: So.

Speaker: 00:30:37

>> Jo Phillips: So I don't know if you know Lee Chambers at all.

Speaker: 00:30:40

>> Wo0: M. Yes, Lee Chambers did a wonderful TedX.

Speaker: 00:30:43

>> Jo Phillips: Yeah, he's wonderful.

Speaker: 00:30:47

Jeremy, Stockdale. Another amazing

Speaker: 00:30:49

ally.

Speaker: 00:30:50

>> Wo0: Jeremy Stockdale. And I can't believe that I've only

Speaker: 00:30:53

recently met M. Jeremy Stockdale.

Speaker: 00:30:56

What a hero. And

Speaker: 00:30:58

what like. Our humour is very similar, isn't

Speaker: 00:31:01

it, Joe?

Speaker: 00:31:02

>> Jo Phillips: Me and Jeremy, dangerous,

Speaker: 00:31:05

dangerous pair. He

Speaker: 00:31:07

runs an initiative that's called On Wednesdays We

Speaker: 00:31:10

Smash the Patriarchy. So on every, Every Wednesday

Speaker: 00:31:13

on LinkedIn you will see a post that, educates men

Speaker: 00:31:16

around the challenges that women have.

Speaker: 00:31:19

Then you've got Dr. Robert Baker, who's over

Speaker: 00:31:22

with the pipeline and he's a UN delegate

Speaker: 00:31:25

for women. He does a huge amount of work in the

Speaker: 00:31:27

space. And I could go on and go on and go

Speaker: 00:31:30

on, but you know, there are so many men

Speaker: 00:31:33

who not only understand the challenges but will be

Speaker: 00:31:36

up standards and that is what we need.

Speaker: 00:31:39

>> Wo0: So I can hold my own. As you

Speaker: 00:31:42

know, I didn't used to be able to hold

Speaker: 00:31:45

my own, but I think because of like the shit that I've been through,

Speaker: 00:31:48

it, gives you a thick skin, right? But on.

Speaker: 00:31:51

There was a post the other day. I think it's Hilary Lewis's

Speaker: 00:31:54

post. Well, some guy

Speaker: 00:31:57

made some really misogynistic. No, no,

Speaker: 00:32:00

it was like, like you're saying that

Speaker: 00:32:03

all men are like abusers and it was

Speaker: 00:32:05

nothing like that at all. So I kind of went

Speaker: 00:32:08

in a little bit hard

Speaker: 00:32:12

and then, mate, did he come back harder? like, things like

Speaker: 00:32:15

this do not normally bother me. I had

Speaker: 00:32:17

to step away. I

Speaker: 00:32:20

had to close it and go and have a situation

Speaker: 00:32:23

because it was just

Speaker: 00:32:26

awful, like,

Speaker: 00:32:29

awful. And, I.

Speaker: 00:32:33

I didn't know what to do. I just didn't know what to do.

Speaker: 00:32:35

Like, if, like, if a friend comes to me and they said, this is happening, I'll

Speaker: 00:32:38

go over there. But

Speaker: 00:32:41

quite often that's definitely. That's not the way to go. Just because

Speaker: 00:32:44

I've got on my high horse and there's ladies in there that are

Speaker: 00:32:47

really, really good at, like, diffusing the

Speaker: 00:32:50

situation, like getting to the point and

Speaker: 00:32:52

explaining things. I'm not good at that. I'm just like

Speaker: 00:32:55

you. Do

Speaker: 00:32:58

you think I would have been able

Speaker: 00:33:01

to go, jeremy, can you help me here? Do

Speaker: 00:33:04

you think that would have been. I would have been able to do

Speaker: 00:33:06

that.

Speaker: 00:33:07

>> Jo Phillips: So what you'll find is, is that with any of those

Speaker: 00:33:10

allies that have mentioned, and there were others, is

Speaker: 00:33:13

that what they are? One, extremely good at

Speaker: 00:33:16

is explaining the challenges that women face

Speaker: 00:33:19

without pointing fingers

Speaker: 00:33:22

and without pitting us against each other

Speaker: 00:33:25

will never, ever, ever solve the

Speaker: 00:33:27

problems that we've got. It won't. Pitting us against each

Speaker: 00:33:30

other won't ever work. In the same way that if I'm only ever speaking to

Speaker: 00:33:33

women, I end up in an echo chamber. yeah, if. If the

Speaker: 00:33:36

likes of Lee are only ever speaking to men, we're in an echo chamber. We've got

Speaker: 00:33:39

to be speaking, got to be communicating across the board.

Speaker: 00:33:42

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:33:43

>> Jo Phillips: So what you'll find is, is that those allies will step in

Speaker: 00:33:46

for you.

Speaker: 00:33:46

But equally, I think there's something about,

Speaker: 00:33:51

if we're in a position online, I

Speaker: 00:33:54

think everybody has a responsibility to look after their own

Speaker: 00:33:57

mental health first.

Speaker: 00:33:59

And it can be so pernicious,

Speaker: 00:34:02

it can be so. It can feel so deep and it can feel

Speaker: 00:34:05

so personal. And, you know, let's face

Speaker: 00:34:08

it, my LinkedIn is, you know, my LinkedIn is polarising,

Speaker: 00:34:11

but I try very hard to make sure

Speaker: 00:34:14

that I'm not affecting the mental health of

Speaker: 00:34:16

anybody who might read the post.

Speaker: 00:34:18

>> Wo0: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:19

>> Jo Phillips: I mean, there aren't times whereby I might be quite

Speaker: 00:34:21

pokey.

Speaker: 00:34:23

>> Wo0: You do it so well.

Speaker: 00:34:24

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:25

>> Jo Phillips: But it's pokey to the point of, hey, this

Speaker: 00:34:28

happens, this is how it affects

Speaker: 00:34:31

women.

Speaker: 00:34:31

>> Wo0: And here's the evidence.

Speaker: 00:34:33

>> Jo Phillips: And here's the evidence. But I think that, you know, what

Speaker: 00:34:36

we know is that men's mental health is at the worst it's

Speaker: 00:34:39

ever been.

Speaker: 00:34:39

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:34:40

>> Jo Phillips: Male suicide is higher than it's ever been. We

Speaker: 00:34:43

are seeing men, come out of positions much earlier than

Speaker: 00:34:46

retirement because of their mental health. So I just think we

Speaker: 00:34:49

all have a responsibility to look after our

Speaker: 00:34:52

own mental health. And I think sometimes what

Speaker: 00:34:55

we want to do is keep going

Speaker: 00:34:57

back to the point and keep voicing an opinion.

Speaker: 00:35:00

And, even today I've had it online and I've looked at it and

Speaker: 00:35:03

thought, mate, put it out there. But it's

Speaker: 00:35:06

out there now and every single person who reads my post will read your

Speaker: 00:35:09

comment and I will let them figure it out

Speaker: 00:35:12

for themselves.

Speaker: 00:35:12

>> Wo0: Yeah, I mean there's def. There's

Speaker: 00:35:15

definitely. Look, I've.

Speaker: 00:35:18

Look, I've got adhd. I just like

Speaker: 00:35:21

bull in a china shop sometimes. All the

Speaker: 00:35:24

time. But there's definitely something that.

Speaker: 00:35:27

Within me that I need to work on how I

Speaker: 00:35:30

react to those. Even, if I react

Speaker: 00:35:33

to them. Because, like, there was no

Speaker: 00:35:35

telling him so. But. But

Speaker: 00:35:38

I should I have gone running in there anyway?

Speaker: 00:35:43

>> Jo Phillips: I mean, there will always be a certain percentage that we

Speaker: 00:35:46

won't convert. But that is the same with

Speaker: 00:35:49

everything, right? Yeah, that's the same with everything.

Speaker: 00:35:52

There's a certain percentage of people that you will never ever get to

Speaker: 00:35:54

recycle anything. There's what it is. There's a certain percentage

Speaker: 00:35:57

of people that you will never ever get to understand

Speaker: 00:36:00

that racism is absolutely disgusting and we should

Speaker: 00:36:03

never be. It. There's just. It's. It's the. It's

Speaker: 00:36:06

the world of humans. And I just think that we

Speaker: 00:36:08

have. We only have so much mental

Speaker: 00:36:11

bandwidth, personally.

Speaker: 00:36:12

>> Wo0: Hm.

Speaker: 00:36:13

>> Jo Phillips: And it's about who's allowed your bandwidth. It's like your battery, isn't it?

Speaker: 00:36:16

>> Wo0: It. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:17

>> Jo Phillips: Right. And sometimes I've got more

Speaker: 00:36:20

battery than others, but I'll generally take it

Speaker: 00:36:23

offline.

Speaker: 00:36:25

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:26

>> Jo Phillips: The phone call. Suggest a conversation. And

Speaker: 00:36:29

quite often when I go back and suggest a conversation, they don't want a

Speaker: 00:36:32

phone call or a conversation.

Speaker: 00:36:33

>> Wo0: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:36

>> Jo Phillips: When they argue my stats, I'll say to them,

Speaker: 00:36:38

I'll have a call with you once you've read that

Speaker: 00:36:41

research.

Speaker: 00:36:42

>> Wo0: Fair. That's absolutely fair.

Speaker: 00:36:44

>> Jo Phillips: And they don't come back because they can't argue the research.

Speaker: 00:36:47

So I just think bandwidth. Right.

Speaker: 00:36:49

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:36:51

I'm gonna move on to the final question because

Speaker: 00:36:54

we've running out of time. It's been so good to talk

Speaker: 00:36:57

to you, but can you tell us

Speaker: 00:37:00

one piece of clothing or an outfit

Speaker: 00:37:03

that you've got that makes you feel your most

Speaker: 00:37:06

powerful or your most beautiful?

Speaker: 00:37:08

Like, you know when you put it on and you're just like,

Speaker: 00:37:11

fuck, yeah.

Speaker: 00:37:13

>> Jo Phillips: Okay, got it.

Speaker: 00:37:16

So I went to an awards do a

Speaker: 00:37:18

couple of months ago and, I

Speaker: 00:37:21

had to make the decision as to what to wear. And I knew it was

Speaker: 00:37:24

red. Not necessarily from a power

Speaker: 00:37:27

play perspective, but how I quite, I like red.

Speaker: 00:37:31

And I knew I wanted it to

Speaker: 00:37:33

say,

Speaker: 00:37:37

she is here. she's

Speaker: 00:37:39

arrived. But I also knew I wanted it to be

Speaker: 00:37:42

feminine.

Speaker: 00:37:43

>> Wo0: Yeah.

Speaker: 00:37:43

>> Jo Phillips: And I wanted to say classy, but I wanted it to say fun.

Speaker: 00:37:47

And so I went with a,

Speaker: 00:37:52

a 1950s style

Speaker: 00:37:55

dress that had no,

Speaker: 00:37:57

sleeves. It just kind of had little,

Speaker: 00:38:00

heart shaped bra at the top. It

Speaker: 00:38:03

had like a full bustier so it pulled you right

Speaker: 00:38:06

in. It had the zip that went up the back

Speaker: 00:38:09

right to the very top. And then it had the

Speaker: 00:38:12

skirt that went out, but it had tulle layers and

Speaker: 00:38:15

layers and layers of tulle underneath it.

Speaker: 00:38:18

And, it came to just over the knee.

Speaker: 00:38:21

And it showed enough

Speaker: 00:38:24

of your feminine parts for you to. Yes, yes,

Speaker: 00:38:27

that's definitely a female. It's definitely. Yeah,

Speaker: 00:38:30

no question. But it

Speaker: 00:38:33

also said, it was a fun

Speaker: 00:38:35

dress, right? You could twirl around in it and you could whoosh

Speaker: 00:38:38

in it and swoosh in it, but you also could

Speaker: 00:38:41

sweep past people. And it kind of had that. Oh,

Speaker: 00:38:44

that's like, that dress, that's

Speaker: 00:38:47

lovely. And I wore it with some, red

Speaker: 00:38:49

heels that wrapped up around the ankle

Speaker: 00:38:52

and I felt like a million

Speaker: 00:38:55

dollars. And it was just such a fun

Speaker: 00:38:57

evening. and yeah, I really, really enjoyed wearing

Speaker: 00:39:00

it. And I think the reason I felt so empowered in it is it's not an

Speaker: 00:39:03

everyday thing. You wouldn't wear it every day.

Speaker: 00:39:06

>> Wo0: I, know how much you felt empowered in that because you sent me about

Speaker: 00:39:09

10 photos.

Speaker: 00:39:11

>> Jo Phillips: You're welcome.

Speaker: 00:39:13

>> Wo0: Absolutely beautiful.

Speaker: 00:39:16

And not something that I've seen you specifically in

Speaker: 00:39:19

before either. Absolutely stunning.

Speaker: 00:39:24

Jo, how can people get in touch with

Speaker: 00:39:27

you? How can they contact you? How can they work with you? What's the

Speaker: 00:39:30

best way?

Speaker: 00:39:32

>> Jo Phillips: So they will find me on my website. So

Speaker: 00:39:34

www.thewomanbehindthewomen.com

Speaker: 00:39:37

there's a inquiry form there. They will also find

Speaker: 00:39:40

me on LinkedIn. Exactly the same, the one behind the women.

Speaker: 00:39:43

and they are very welcome to reach out by a DM

Speaker: 00:39:45

M. But then also find my mobile number on

Speaker: 00:39:48

my website and my email address is

Speaker: 00:39:50

jooman behindthewomen.com we'll

Speaker: 00:39:53

obviously put those in.

Speaker: 00:39:54

>> Wo0: The show notes and

Speaker: 00:39:57

yeah, okay. I love you. Thank you so much.

Speaker: 00:40:01

>> Jo Phillips: Right back at you. Right back at you.

Speaker: 00:40:04

>> Wo0: you're the best. You're the best

Speaker: 00:40:07

around. I love you. You're

Speaker: 00:40:09

wonderful. I thank you so much for

Speaker: 00:40:12

coming on.

Speaker: 00:40:13

>> Jo Phillips: Thanks so much for having me. I bloody love you.

Speaker: 00:40:20

>> Wo0: That's it for today's episode of Don't Fucking Tell Me what to Wear

Speaker: 00:40:23

or How to Run My Business. On the Woopod with me, Wendy

Speaker: 00:40:26

Gannon. This is more than just a podcast. It's

Speaker: 00:40:29

part of female 5 million. Head to the link in the show

Speaker: 00:40:31

notes to find out more about our movement to empower women.

Speaker: 00:40:35

If this episode spoke to you in any way, made you laugh,

Speaker: 00:40:38

made you cry, try or maybe inspired you, share

Speaker: 00:40:41

it with a friend who needs to hear it. Leave us a rating and a

Speaker: 00:40:44

review and let's keep this movement growing.

Speaker: 00:40:47

And while I've got you here, my photography is the way that

Speaker: 00:40:50

I fight back against the patriarchy. I empower

Speaker: 00:40:52

female founders with the confidence to be themselves in their business,

Speaker: 00:40:56

to really enjoy their photo shoot and actually

Speaker: 00:40:58

love their photos so then they can grow their

Speaker: 00:41:01

business, increase their prices, and get paid what they

Speaker: 00:41:04

deserve. If you want to work with me, drop

Speaker: 00:41:07

me a message. All the info you need to contact me is in the show

Speaker: 00:41:10

notes. Until next time, keep doing you

Speaker: 00:41:12

and remember, you are part of something bigger.

Speaker: 00:41:14

>> Wo0: bye.