Coercive Control, Risk Factors, and Staying Safe – How to Protect Yourself from Abuse and Coercive Control with Lucy Bentley

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>> Wo0: Welcome to don't fucking Tell me what to wear or how to

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run my business. This is the

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Woopod.

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>> Lucy: Your safety is paramount. I would always say that people trust

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your gut because you are the person who has lived this. So if you

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feel that you're not safe, don't let anyone tell you

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otherwise.

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>> Wo0: I'm your host, Wendy Gannon, but most people call me

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Woo. I'm a photographer, adhder,

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female advocate, and let's be honest, an all

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round legend. Can you tell I didn't write this

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script?

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This podcast is part of Female5Million, a

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movement founded to empower women to step the up,

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take control, and unapologetically own their

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space. It all started

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with some fucking Jean's LinkedIn post

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spouting some sexist about how women should dress

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to succeed in business. And you know what?

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Stuff like that really fucks me

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off. It really fucks me off.

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So I posted about it and that post ignited

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something bigger. A nationwide photography project,

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a full blown fucking movement. And now this

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podcast here on the Woopod,

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we're raising the voices of women who refuse to be told what to

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do. Women who are done playing by the rules and are now

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saying, don't fucking tell me what to wear or how to run my

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business. If you've ever been told to tone it down,

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dress more appropriately or. Or run your business like a

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man, fuck that.

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Expect raw, unfiltered conversations with women

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who have fought through sexism, abuse, and

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outdated patriarchal bullshit to build success on their terms.

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all whilst wearing whatever the fuck they want.

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Oh, and there's more swearing than our producer is willing to

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beep out. Sorry, buckers. Speaking of

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which, you'll probably hear me ask producer Bacchus to chime

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in from time to time, because like, I give a shit

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what she says. We've both got adhd. We bounce well off each

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other. Deal it. We're here

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to celebrate women doing business their way and shine a spotlight

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on the incredible ways women are fighting back and lifting each other

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up. Because, to be honest, that's what it's all about.

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And for those who aren't able to speak up right now,

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for whatever reason. I see you.

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Okay, let's crack on then.

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So, Lisi, can you give

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us a.

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>> Lucy: Quick intro of who you are and.

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>> Wo0: What you do, please?

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>> Lucy: Yes. So, I am a former criminal justice

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professional, so I've worked in various different things, including

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I did a brief sprint stint in the prisons.

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I was a probation officer, including, in case

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management and in, I worked

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in the Courts as well. So I left an abusive relationship

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myself. so I've got kind of first hand experience of that

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and I now make podcasts because

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why not?

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>> Wo0: And we met, we met

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like on LinkedIn. But it was all very quick,

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wasn't it? We met on LinkedIn and you were like, can you

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come on my podcast? and I was like,

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yeah, no.

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>> Lucy: No, no beating around the boat.

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>> Wo0: and emotional support, background noise. Like if

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you haven't listened to it, go and listen to it. My,

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My episode was over two

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weeks and it was the most

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chaotic episode. Was it something like

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that?

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>> Lucy: So don't get me wrong, all like we love and appreciate all of our

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guests but you, you did make me cry during your

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episode. It was it was a particularly good one. So yeah, we

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enjoyed that.

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>> Wo0: Makes me happy. But I was going to come back on, wasn't I and get

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my, like, yeah, I won't talk about what I was going to

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do on this podcast because we haven't got

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that humour here.

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So why did you get involved in the female 5 million

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project?

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>> Lucy: Well, really I think I am quite

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interested in kind of people who are putting

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work into reducing the stigma of lived

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experience issues. Because I think one of the things for me was like when

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I was because I was homeless due to domestic abuse and when I was going

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through that situation I almost kind of. And I knew, I knew this wasn't the

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case because I'd worked in that area, but it felt to me almost as

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if like I was the only one who this has happened to. And so like

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when, when you hear the stories from other people and these are just normal

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people as well, these are women who you see in the street, these are women who you

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would find inspirational, you know, and it's, it's not like

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a, you know, it's not like I see the underbelly unfortunately this is a,

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this is an issue that you know, affects a lot of us and so

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like for then people to be coming through that and then making

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projects, we're actually like, we're celebrating what it is to be

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women, you know and you know,

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sort of like to not, not kind of just be controlled like that

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anymore. I just like, you know, I think it's very cool and so I was very

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privileged to kind of take part in that really. So, so thank you, thank

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you for coming along.

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>> Wo0: So you came to the London studio shoot

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and just smashing

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you up. You're just great. And the outfit that

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you wore was one of my favourites,

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which was Great.

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>> Lucy: No comment.

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>> Wo0: So you wanted to come onto the podcast and talk

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to us about something specific, didn't you? Can you let us know what that

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is?

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>> Lucy: Yeah. So I think one of the things

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that I learned as a justice professional

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was about the kind of signs of abuse.

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I think sometimes when people are going through relationships that they might

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find difficult, I think they don't always necessarily understand

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the risk that they're at. One of the things that helped keep

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me safe when I left domestic and when I was experiencing

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domestic abuse was my knowledge

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of the risk factors involved in that. Because I

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think obviously the, the stats are quite high. Well,

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I mean, to be fair, like, any one dying from domestic abuse is

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too high. Let's just make that clear for a second.

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But, obviously the fact I think it was it like two

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women a week is just, you know, that to me

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is like. Well, yeah, and it's, it's, you know,

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it's a, it's a large scale problem. And

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so I think that like, we need more knowledge

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of like, people being able to say, okay, like I really am at risk here.

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Because I think sometimes, like, we don't even. Especially when you're with

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people who are quite psychologically abusive and they're, they're very good at like

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twisting their narrative may perhaps making you feel like you're in the

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wrong. You, you struggle to really kind of understand the danger

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that you're in. And so, yeah, so I just wanted to kind of run for a few

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resources really, because, and I think especially like,

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unfortunately, I, mean I'm not going to speak too much on this because

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of litigation I'm going through, but

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justice professionals don't unfortunately take people seriously

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as well. So I think it's the knowledge that you need to kind of almost be able to

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advocate for yourself and say, you know, if help isn't

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forthcoming. Well, okay, well, like I need to make a safety plan

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for myself. Whether that involves help or whether that is, you

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know, on a personal basis, how can I keep myself

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safe?

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>> Wo0: Amazing. So what are these resources?

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>> Lucy: So, yeah, I think the first one I'd like

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to briefly, speak about

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is something that we would use as justice

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professionals called a dash checklist. so it's

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not like, you know, it's not. These aren't kind

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of like massive secrets. These are just kind of like

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tools that anyone can go and look at.

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so basically it's just a, it's a multiple choice

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questionnaire. So when I say it's called a dash

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checklist, this Is spelled dash as in D A, S,

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H, like, dashing through the snow. I don't know what you want

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to call that. But so you. But

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yeah. so it's a multiple choice questionnaire.

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And basically,

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we would use this as justice professionals. If someone disclosed

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that they were going through abuse and then, whether or

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they got a certain amount of ticks would be whether or not they were

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referred to sort of like higher levels of support.

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So essentially like, there are meetings and things where we say,

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okay, so this woman is at a risk of domestic

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homicide. And so you can refer them to

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that. so generally speaking this will be done with

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someone because of a specific incident, if you know what

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I mean. So, it will say like, has the current

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incident resulted in injury? and

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so I'd like to kind of say, like, obviously domestic abuse

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does not necessarily mean physical abuse. but this is

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obviously, this is assessing the risk of domestic

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homicide. are you very frightened

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is one of them. I think essentially

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sometimes we call it like the victim's intuitive sense of

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fear. And so like, I think anyone who's

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kind of been in an abusive relationship can kind of

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understand where this is coming from is sometimes you almost

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like you pick up on like signs from that person

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and do you. Do you know where I'm coming from? And so it's like

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you kind of know.

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>> Wo0: Yeah, I know exactly where you're coming from. Yeah. There

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was like a look in the eyes or there was like,

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you just know what, you just know when shit's gonna go

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down.

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>> Lucy: Certain body language.

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>> Wo0: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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>> Lucy: No, you do, you do, you really do. And m. And

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then it's kind of almost like the roulette wheel of what's going to be the thing

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that actually, you know, precipitates the, the

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incident. so it says, what are you afraid of as well?

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So, is it further injury or violence? and so sometimes

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like people, perpetrators can make threats, in

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terms of like trying to control that woman's behaviour. So they

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may or not may not be real, but I think like, they need to be taken

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seriously because even if it's not indicative of actual harm,

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it's indicative of the level of fear that this perpetrator has

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created for that victim to be living.

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>> Wo0: Yeah, so, so I had. If you like,

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I'm gonna burn, your house down if you don't

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leave, like, if you don't

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sneak out and go from my friend's

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house, I will go and burn your house down. That kind of

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thing.

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>> Lucy: Well, one of the Things that was said to me a lot was that, you

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know, it was threats to harm my dog. So I'm going to throw your dog in the

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street. Or I've, you know, when, or, was it,

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oh, I've called the rspca, they're coming to get your dog

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now. You better come back to the house. you know, just, just empty, you

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know, but then, you know, and you hear other things as well, like, you know, if

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I'm gonna harm, I'll go and harm your

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parent or something. Like, you know, so it could be anything, really. It's

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like the. It's very broad. and then are you depressed or having

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suicidal thoughts? So again, it's just kind of like indicative of

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what is the emotional harm that's been caused to this

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person. have you separated or

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tried to separate from your abuser within the past

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year? So I think one. Well, it's

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not. I think that the high risk, highest risk time

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for a victim of domestic abuse is when they leave that

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perpetrator. essentially that is

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when the control has been,

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threatened. And often, often, like, you know,

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perpetrators are dependent on their victims

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for various things, in terms of like, you know, I

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don't know, housework, money. However, they've kind of like

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arranged that relationship to be. And so they, you know, because

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the control has been threatened, they

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then, you know, obviously don't like that.

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so is there conflict over child contact? I think. I mean,

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I've got no experience of this myself, but I can't even imagine

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what that's like for, people who have to go through that. I mean, I was

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really lucky, the.

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>> Wo0: Fact that he just didn't bother. So. Thank

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you.

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>> Lucy: I think, I think children can often be

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weaponized. Yeah.

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>> Wo0: 100.

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>> Lucy: I think, as well, we need. It's important to recognise that,

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like, emotion, like, children suffer emotional harm just from being

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in homes where there is domestic abuse. They don't have to be there, you

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know, and kids pick up on things as well. So I'm not trying to

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make victims feel guilty in any way, because victims are not, but

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it's just something to bear in mind. You know, your kids might, you

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know, lie away, you know, be in bed, but they can still hear

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things.

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>> Wo0: And they pick up on your. Like, they pick up on your stress

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and everything, don't they?

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>> Lucy: They do, yeah, they do. so it

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does, Is.

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Does the abuser constantly text, call,

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contact, follow, stalk or harass you?

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so I suppose it's, you know, like, if you go to,

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you you know, you've gone out with a friend or something, and you're getting

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constant text messages or that phone ringing over and over and over

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and over and over until you. You pick it up. After I've experienced that, it's actually

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quite horrible, to be honest. is the abuse happening more often? So

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this is, one of the signs as well. So I think abuse is often

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quite cyclical. So it's not, you know,

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because things at the end of day, if abusive people were always

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abusive, they wouldn't be in a relationship to the

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first at all. So it generally is

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a cycle. And you'll see those steps of. After

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a huge incident, you'll then have a honeymoon period, and then

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things will start to go downhill again. So I think one

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of the big warning signs is when that circle almost

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gets smaller, so there's more incidents

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occurring. so I think as well that can quite often

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coincide with perhaps, maybe things

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happening externally outside the relationship. So

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perhaps the perpetrator is having a deterioration in his

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mental health. Perhaps there' more pressures. so, like, financial

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pressures, for example. And so obviously that

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then sort of like, you know, puts more pressure on

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the relationship. so

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do they try to control everything you

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do? So again, again, like, don't try not to take this too literally

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because, like, everything you do obviously don't control everything you do. But I

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think sometimes when you've left a controlling relationship, you

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actually, you kind of like, almost, bit by bit, become

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adjusted to almost like a series of rules.

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And once you've, like, learned the series of rules and the, like, the

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goalposts change, then it's like, so, like, so folks,

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like, for example, I don't talk too much about my experiences

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because I don't really want to upset the apple cart.

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But, in terms of. So first of all, it

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was like, I wasn't allowed to use the dishwasher.

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And then it was, the plates have to be

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stacked in a certain way. And then, you know, and then. And then you

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go, someone's screaming in your face. Because you've got. The

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entire kitchen is clean, but there's one plate which is on the side next to the

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sink. And you kind of think, hold on a minute. Like, you know, I

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could have used a dishwasher. Yeah, like, like why we. You know.

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But, yeah, and so it's like. It was almost like the rules

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kind of stack up a lot. And. Because it's not about. It's

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not about the dishwasher, is it? It's just. It's about,

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like, control and

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then obviously there are other things in relationships that we can

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see. So like honour based

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violence is something that it flags up here. So it could be to

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do with you know, people's religious beliefs or you know,

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views. perhaps some more extreme patriarchal

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societies, perhaps like Middle Eastern countries for

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example where they have kind of higher

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expectations of how women should

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behave.

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so yeah, and then so some other ones.

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Has the abuser ever attempted to strangle,

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choke, suffocate or drown you? I think the number

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one sign, the abuser will go on to kill

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a woman. Perhaps not the number one sign. That's a bit of a bold claim. I'm not sure I

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can back that up, but is one of the biggest signs

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is someone who, who strangles their

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partner. so that is a, especially

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obviously in a non consensual situation. so that

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is absolutely, you know, if that has happened to you, you

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need to be concerned about your safety. yeah. So

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saying things of a sexual nature that make you feel bad or that

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physically hurts you or someone else.

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So I think, you know, I think in this day and age we've all kind of come to

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the conclusion that rape can occur

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within relationships. You know, it's not. It's

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not. And you know, statistically it's most likely to occur

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within relationships just because, you know, you need to always ensure that you have

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consent. It doesn't matter whether this is your girlfriend, wife, partner,

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you know, boyfriend, you, you need

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to consent. So mistreating animals,

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again is a, is a big one.

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it says are there any financial issues?

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number 21. So this is this is a really interesting one because it's

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also one of the leading signs that we find in

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baby deaths as well. Without being too morbid. Sorry.

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But so it's. Has the abuser

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had any problems in the past year with drugs, alcohol or

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mental health leading to problems, in leading a normal

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life? So we've got drugs, alcohol and

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mental health. And so that's actually called within social

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work that's called the toxic trio. So you have

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mental health problems plus drug and alcohol problems plus

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domestic abuse. Within the home. They are the

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highest risk factors for a child to to be

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killed. and again like I don't want anyone listening to

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this to think I'm m judgmental about people with mental health problems or even

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you know, with drug and alcohol problems because it doesn't mean,

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because you suffer from these that you are an Abusive person.

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It just means these are features within

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cases or studies we've looked into where these

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offences have occurred. So it doesn't necessarily mean because you have, that

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you are an abuser, if you see what I mean. and then.

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Yeah, so the final two are ah,

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breaking bail, or non

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molestation orders. I think that is kind of key

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feature in this kind of personality type. So it's almost like if you

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kind of set a boundary so you try to block that person or you

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know, you take out a protective order and they're like

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no. And they push against that.

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And finally, have they ever been in trouble with the police

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or have a criminal history? So again,

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that one, it doesn't always mean

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that a lot of the time, you know, abuse occurs and

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people don't call the police. So they may well have a history of abusing other

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women and they've never come to the detention of the police at all.

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>> Wo0: Yeah.

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>> Lucy: You know, and, but again these are all

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just sort of like things you can kind of like reflect on within your own

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relationship. So just kind of say if you're already kind of feeling a bit unsafe

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but you're, you're kind of like, well, am I, you know, because

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I don't know if you've ever thought this, but sometimes I think, oh, am I being a bit

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oversensitive? Like I'm, I just. Am I to

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blame or like, you know, or anything? Like, you know, am I, am I

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crazy? yeah.

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>> Wo0: So I, I never

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thought that I was hit enough or

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abused enough or

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raped enough for it to matter.

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Just like the people would believe me. Like there's like.

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Because it was within the,

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the our bed at home, like

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not come lock look trigger warning you're not kicking and

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screaming like in a park or something like

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that, that it, that it didn't matter.

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>> Lucy: So.

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>> Wo0: It, this is really good for people to realise

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that, that any, any abuse is not

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okay and, and that you can get help and

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it all does matter and you matter. And.

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>> Lucy: Yeah, no, definitely. And I think I would encourage people

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to go, anyone who is concerned about, I

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mean obviously like that, you know, there is the tagline like love should

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hurt. And that is just a fundament, you know, for anyone.

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But I would encourage people to go and Google something called the

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power and control wheel because domestic abuse is such

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a spectrum of behaviours and a lot of

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these behaviours, aren't physical abuse. So there isn't.

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So. But there are also things that we would consider

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under a risk assessment. We would consider Physical abuse, it doesn't necessarily

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mean that they have made contact with you as an

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individual. So, for example, if someone is

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ranting and raving at you for hours on end while you sit

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there like, you know, like spewing like bile

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at you, and you just kind of like, you know, you feel like you're covered in oil

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afterwards with just, just their hatred. Like,

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say, say you spoke up and then that person then picks

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something up and then throw something at the wall because you've tried to talk

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back, that is considered physical abuse. If someone

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punches a wall next to your head, that is considered physical

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abuse because it's a physical act that's intended to maintain

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control of that situation or to elicit

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fear within a victim. So, you know, and these

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things you kind of like, and especially like abusers will say things like, oh,

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I've never hit. I've never hit anyone. It's like, well, that's irrelev. It's

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irrelevant. As criminal justice professionals, that would be

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irrelevant to their risk. You know, we would look at the entire

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situation and, you know, a lot of the time

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there are without, you know, wanting to be fear mongering. This isn't

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about fear mongering. This is just about people being equipped with the

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information they need to keep themselves safe. There are abusers

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where, you know, they don't nest. You know, they act

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aggressively, but it isn't,

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it isn't like a red mist, kind of reactive. You know, someone's

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lost control and they're punching bottles. It is a very

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calculated use of physical abuse, such as throwing something at

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a wal. in order to mains, as I say,

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to maintain a, control over that situation. They haven't, they haven't lost

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control, you know, so.

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Yeah.

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but no. Was it. Was there any questions about that at all?

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>> Wo0: I haven't got any questions because I can see it

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all. Do you know what I mean? Because I, because I've been there,

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so I can see it.

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>> Lucy: If someone isn't sure you can reach out

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to. I would, I would encourage people to reach out to. If you don't want to

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speak to the police, perhaps. so there are IDVA

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services, so it's independent domestic violence advocates.

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there were. They will have them in every area of the

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uk. And I mean, there was one who spoke to me, who she

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called. She called me randomly. so I must have left a voicemail

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without knowing it. And she spoke to me. This was on a Sunday afternoon for about

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an hour. And like, she was like an angel, honestly, like,

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I'VE never just, you know, it just came at exactly the right

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time. And you don't have to

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pursue a prosecution in order to get support.

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Okay. If you are seeing these signs within relationships. So the

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police can do things, you know, they can give you a panic alarm, they can do,

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they can give you lots of support without you necessarily having to

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pursue a conviction in court. So please, like, please just bear that in

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mind. You know, your, your safety is paramount. And I think I would always say to

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people, trust your gut because you are the person who has lived this, you have

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lived this pattern, you've lived this cycle. So if you, if you feel that you're not

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safe, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

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>> Wo0: You know, I think with neurodivergent people

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as well, it's like another

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layer, isn't it? Because there's the people pleasing

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that goes on top of that. so

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I thought that I had to be something that I

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thought that they wanted.

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Don't ask me how I knew that. And then it

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wasn't. So I didn't ever call the police, I

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didn't ever tell anybody. I, there were some friends

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that knew, but they knew both of us. and

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I'm m talking about both relationships now because there was like a,

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a ten year

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narcissistic relationship with like

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financial, abuse, like all of it. And that was worse than the

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physical. So I completely get that it's domestic

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abuse, it's not all violent. and I

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didn't tell anybody, I didn't get any support.

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So the best places to go would be the ID for

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service. Yeah.

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>> Lucy: And then there'll be, there'll be charities as well, you know, like,

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and these will differ area to area. But I think

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what we're starting to realise more and more in the justice system

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is I think it's, it's trying to give control back

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to victims because that's, that kind of. The

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point is when you've been in a relationship like this, you don't want to feel that

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choices are being taken out of your hands.

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So. And I think, I think kind of what you're describing is almost like the fawn

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response, which is very, very common in victims of

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domestic abuse. So it's as you say, it's that people pleasing. So

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it's like, okay, well you almost like create that set of rules. So it

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might, you know, when you say controlling behaviour, I think

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perpetrators have not necessarily said like,

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you must do this. You know, there's no Ten Commandments written on A

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whiteboard in your house saying, you must live by this. But actually what it

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is, is it's almost like a Pavlov dog of

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conditioning, where you realise that when you do this thing, that man

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becomes angry, so. Or woman or

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person becomes angry, and so

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you make a mental note of it in your head and

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you, you know, just don't do that thing.

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And then, as I say, but then it, you know, the. The

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goalpost move. So I think it's actually, and especially when it's. When

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we look at it in that cycle, because there are always, like, highs.

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And so you kind of think, like, you know, this person on a good

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day, you know, they're so, like,

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wonderful. You know, within that trauma bond, the highs are

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so high within these relationships that you think, if only I just do

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X, Y, Z. And, you know, that's how you start to blame yourself.

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So, No, yeah, I completely understand. With people, I

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think neurodivergent people are at higher risk of

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being in an abusive relationship. I think

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quite often I've seen a statistic that

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especially autistic women are quite often

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subject to abuse. I don't

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know why that is. I don't know if it's to do with, dynamics of

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grooming or, you know, perhaps, you know, isolation, not

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having that support in their younger years, finding it harder to make friendships. So

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you're more easily sucked in by a lot. But no, definitely, it

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does. It does, as you say, add that, aspect.

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>> Wo0: It's. It's mad, right, that

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you can't sometimes specifically

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pinpoint that someone has been abusive

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or. But you know, you know that you just feel crap. They're

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doing this stuff to you, but you can't say to

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somebody, this is going on

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because there's like. Like you say, there's no tank. Like, there's

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no. It's not written down anywhere.

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How can people, like. I

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don't know, how can people understand that they're

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not just going mad like that. That

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is a part of the whole abuse thing as well.

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>> Lucy: Well, I think. I think, to be honest, it is

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difficult when you're in that relationship. So I think a lot of

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the time, Because the thing is, I. I was a domestic abuse lead, so I feel

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like I don't. I don't want to sound stupid, but, you know, I had full. All

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of this knowledge of abusive relationships, you know, and these dynamics,

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and I still live that for years. Yeah. So, you

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know, I've always. I wouldn't want people to sit there

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feeling guilty or that they're not safeguarding themselves properly

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because denial is strong, like, you know, and then, you know,

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and also, you know, psychological manipulation can happen to

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absolutely anyone, you know, so it

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is tough. But I think ultimately, like, if you. I

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think the great thing about these tools like.

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Like this dash checklist is it gives something

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tangible, so. Because it is precisely that a lot of the time,

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the controlling dynamics are so hard for you to kind of vocalise.

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>> Wo0: Yeah.

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>> Lucy: It then gives an assessment for professionals to be

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able to say, okay, well, these are the things that we. We need

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to actually really see what danger in here. And so

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they can elicit that from you rather than you kind of having to explain

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it. Does that make sense?

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>> Wo0: Yeah.

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>> Lucy: So it gives them the framework.

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>> Wo0: Yeah. But there's got to be like an incident before that happens,

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right?

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>> Lucy: I mean. I mean, generally speaking, that is

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when there will be an incident

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in order to make. And when I say incident, it doesn't

Speaker: 00:25:31

necessarily have to be like a physical abuse incident. It might just be, you know, a

Speaker: 00:25:34

frightening evening where you kind of. It, you know, put

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something in your head that actually, you know, this, this. Something's not right here, so it doesn't

Speaker: 00:25:40

have to be, but it just. Generally speaking, that is, you know, there's

Speaker: 00:25:43

usually something that makes someone come forward. So, yeah, it doesn't, it

Speaker: 00:25:46

doesn't have to be. No, it could just be, you know, like, you know, it could just be

Speaker: 00:25:49

it's gone away for a week and you've kind of had time and to kind

Speaker: 00:25:52

of let the dust settle and go. Actually, you know, I don't, you know,

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I don't feel like this is right and I want to leave this

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relationship.

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>> Wo0: Yeah. Oh, bless you. Thanks, Lucy.

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>> Lucy: Could I speak a bit about this. This

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model?

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>> Wo0: Absolutely. Yes, you can speak about this model.

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>> Lucy: Very keen.

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>> Wo0: Please do.

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>> Lucy: Thank you. So, when

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a person, is.

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Their life is taken by a domestic abuse perpetrator, generally

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speaking, what happens is we would have, within justice systems, so

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they would go through, any

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agency, any agency

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contact that this person has had, whether that's. And

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I think that's both with the perpetrator and the victim.

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So quite often they may be known to social services, the perpetrator may

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have been known to probation services and so forth. So the

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idea is that, like justice

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agencies can have almost like lessons learned from

Speaker: 00:26:49

where we've gone wrong and where we could have. And to be honest, you

Speaker: 00:26:51

know, it's difficult because ultimately that

Speaker: 00:26:54

person has committed that crime, not the justice agency. So it is difficult.

Speaker: 00:26:57

But Ultimately, sometimes there are lessons learned where we could say, well actually if this

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were to happen again, we can do this. And this is a procedure

Speaker: 00:27:03

we can change to safeguard that person or people in the future.

Speaker: 00:27:06

So it is a good thing that

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we do. But from these,

Speaker: 00:27:12

they've brought out a eight step

Speaker: 00:27:14

timeline within domestic homicides. and

Speaker: 00:27:17

so this is kind of like almost like a

Speaker: 00:27:20

framework. so again, if you notice any of these signs,

Speaker: 00:27:23

it's probably something where you should probably go. Even if there isn't an

Speaker: 00:27:26

immediate incident, this should be kind of raising things in

Speaker: 00:27:29

your mind that you're like, okay, well you know, I need to kind of like

Speaker: 00:27:32

seek support here, whether or not that means you go to the police for a

Speaker: 00:27:35

conviction. But I, I need help here.

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So. Yeah, so the first stage is a

Speaker: 00:27:40

pre relationship history of stalking or abuse

Speaker: 00:27:43

by the perpetrator. is it's very, very

Speaker: 00:27:46

common for abusive partners to have had

Speaker: 00:27:49

a previous abusive relationships. You know, is, it doesn't

Speaker: 00:27:52

come out of nowhere. I think, you know, there may be

Speaker: 00:27:54

a very odd case where perhaps someone has a mental

Speaker: 00:27:57

breakdown out of nowhere. But I think generally speaking,

Speaker: 00:28:00

this kind of domestic abuse, it is, there will be a history of

Speaker: 00:28:03

it. women can apply to

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your police station under Claire's Law, for

Speaker: 00:28:08

any information on that perpetrator. You can do that, you can do that

Speaker: 00:28:11

without them knowing. So it just, basically it's

Speaker: 00:28:14

just almost like a background check. Does this, does this person

Speaker: 00:28:17

have any history of domestic abuse? They may not, they may

Speaker: 00:28:20

not known to agencies. But, so that's just something you

Speaker: 00:28:23

could do to safeguard yourself if you were concerned.

Speaker: 00:28:26

so yeah, step two, which is something unfortunately I've had to kind of

Speaker: 00:28:29

like reflect on myself. So it's the, the romance

Speaker: 00:28:32

develops quickly into a serious relationship, I

Speaker: 00:28:35

think especially with neurodivergent people. Like,

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I don't know about you, but I definitely have like, I'll be

Speaker: 00:28:41

like, oh, instant best friends. Or like, you know, even, even you said about

Speaker: 00:28:44

the podcast kind of went from 0 to 100. We kind of met. We're like, come

Speaker: 00:28:46

on. And so I know, is

Speaker: 00:28:49

something that we can all kind of relate to. but it is, it is

Speaker: 00:28:52

quite a red flag, unfortunately. you know, it's a sign of,

Speaker: 00:28:55

the relationship, is moving too

Speaker: 00:28:57

quickly. so that would be stage two.

Speaker: 00:29:01

stage three is the relationship becomes dominated.

Speaker: 00:29:03

>> Wo0: It's just my life.

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>> Lucy: I know, I know.

Speaker: 00:29:08

Yeah. And yeah, so step three, the relationship

Speaker: 00:29:11

becomes dominated by coercive control.

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So as we said it's almost like, heard a good

Speaker: 00:29:16

description. So it was like the frog in the hot. In the

Speaker: 00:29:19

boiling pan or whatever it is. So, you know, like,

Speaker: 00:29:22

the water gets hotter and hotter and hotter, but the frog doesn't necessarily

Speaker: 00:29:25

acknowledge it until like the water's boiling. And I think that's a

Speaker: 00:29:28

really good metaphor for coercive control. So it's

Speaker: 00:29:30

like it becomes more, escalated over

Speaker: 00:29:33

time. So stage four, a trigger

Speaker: 00:29:36

threatens the perpetrator's control.

Speaker: 00:29:39

So for example, the relationship ends or the

Speaker: 00:29:42

perpetrator gets into financial difficulty.

Speaker: 00:29:45

So within the model, I think you could

Speaker: 00:29:48

stay in that coercive control stage for quite a long time. But this

Speaker: 00:29:51

is when, as I was saying before, like, something externally

Speaker: 00:29:54

might occur and it threatens essentially, you know, like the mental

Speaker: 00:29:57

health of this perpetrator might decline. Their behaviours become more

Speaker: 00:29:59

extreme. As a, you know, I'm

Speaker: 00:30:02

m not going to try and justify it because it's like, you know, there's no

Speaker: 00:30:05

justification to it, but you can. Anyone who's been in an

Speaker: 00:30:08

abusive relationship will kind of know what I'm referring to here.

Speaker: 00:30:11

So, yeah, again, step five is escalation.

Speaker: 00:30:14

So it's increase in the intensity or frequency

Speaker: 00:30:17

of the control tactics. So that cycle of abuse is

Speaker: 00:30:20

getting smaller and smaller. you know, they're kicking off, you

Speaker: 00:30:22

know, the time between these incidents is becoming

Speaker: 00:30:25

shorter. it's not just once a month, it's now once a week

Speaker: 00:30:28

and then, you know, every other day. one of the things as well

Speaker: 00:30:31

is it's almost like a seesaw. So there'll be a really

Speaker: 00:30:34

serious incident, you know, or like, and then the next

Speaker: 00:30:37

day it'll be like, I love you, let's get married, like that sort of thing.

Speaker: 00:30:40

So it's like, you know, it's. They know that they've upset

Speaker: 00:30:43

the apple cart. So it's like drawing you back in and it just almost becomes.

Speaker: 00:30:45

The highs and lows become quite extreme.

Speaker: 00:30:48

so, yeah, so stage

Speaker: 00:30:50

six. so this is obviously at stage five, it could be

Speaker: 00:30:53

that the person has left the relationship.

Speaker: 00:30:56

So, I think what we find in a lot of men who

Speaker: 00:30:59

commit these kinds of offences is a tendency

Speaker: 00:31:02

towards rumination. So it's like they feel like they've been

Speaker: 00:31:04

wronged in some way. I think a lot of the time

Speaker: 00:31:07

perpetrators kind of like don't

Speaker: 00:31:10

always. They find ways to justify their behaviour

Speaker: 00:31:13

so they don't have to deal with the shame of their behaviour or address it

Speaker: 00:31:16

in any way. They find a way to blame the Victim. And

Speaker: 00:31:18

so when that victim leaves, you know, then that, you know, they kind of like

Speaker: 00:31:21

ruminate on that. so

Speaker: 00:31:24

I think here we kind of. We can see it kind

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of like the path can diverge. So it can either be they

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kind of, you know, they might get into a new relationship and so then they're in the

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honeymoon period of that, so not really worrying about this person anymore,

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or it can be that they're now ruminating on this

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person. so stage seven is the

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planning. So they may buy weapons or seek opportunities to

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get the victim alone. as sage is

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the homicides. So I think again, if

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you're experiencing any kind of stalking behaviours

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that with a context of of

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coercive behaviour in your relationship, seek

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help. Like, you know, this is, like this is now you

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need to seek help because, especially if they're.

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Is it. I mean it's one thing to kind of like ruminate on

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a wrong. You know, we've all had breakups where we kind of think, oh, you know,

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that person, fuck right off. You know, they did this, they did that. That's part

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of processing a relationship. It's absolutely enough of

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another matter for that person to take those thoughts and put

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that into action. So, you know, that is not normal behaviour.

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It's not normal behaviour to you know, to follow

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someone. And stalking doesn't have to be. There are lots of other ways

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that stalking can occur that isn't necessarily like someone physically outside

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your window. We live in the information age. We've got computers, we've

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got phones, we've got other ways we can track people.

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>> Wo0: It was also like the threat of it. So I, When they

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say that they're going to be there, like when you open the door,

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so you. So you don't know if you can open the door

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and you don't know, know if you like, look around the

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corner if they're going to be there. Do you know what I mean? And that dread

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there probably never are. But you still think every

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single time you leave your house that they're going to be there.

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>> Lucy: I left the country. I left the country due to the

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lack of police response in my case. I, mean, the police did

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respond. They agreed the risk I was at, but they just didn't help. They

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weren't particularly. And I don't. Again, I don't want to put people off

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in terms of like, if they do want to seek prosecution, do. But

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it was quite delayed and because of my knowledge of these

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steps, I left the country.

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it's terrifying. And I don't think, unless you've been through it, you can

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really understand what it's like to live under that level of

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fear. And again, that ties into what we were saying

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with the dash, where it's. It's the victim's intuitive sense

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of fear as well. And so it may not make sense to those professionals.

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Yeah, but if this woman is terrified, you need to listen to her because

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she may not be able to, as you say, vocalise like, the

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whole mishmash of, like, weird, controlling, coercive

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behaviours that she's lived up there, but she is afraid. So you need to take that

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seriously, you know?

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>> Wo0: Yeah. And every, like, thing on its own,

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isolated, is like. Probably sounds

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completely normal, but. But when they're

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all together and they're adding up, it is. It's

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scary.

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>> Lucy: No, it is. And so it's almost like, that was it,

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like plausible deniability or something. you

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know, so it's like, as you say, each thing you just think, oh, why are you worried

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about that? But it's like. And I think as well,

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like, sometimes with victims, I certainly

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find this, is that it's actually hard to even

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kind of like, think about the worst bits that

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you've been through. So you're trying to, like, explain it to Justice Special.

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And it's like, almost like my brain was going like, super. I just couldn't

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really speak properly because I was so traumatised

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that, like. And so. And so then it's. Then you're not. You're struggling to actually

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get the information you need to the professional people, if you know what I mean.

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So it's, you know, there's a lot, lot that goes on within these dynamics

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that, But, yeah, ah, but I think if you

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can, if you at least have this information, you can

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then make a safety plan. So even if you

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don't want to get the police involved, you can make a safety plan that includes the

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police or that doesn't include the police. Do you see what I

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mean? because, you know, there are things you can do to like,

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you know, you can. You can move to a different area, you could secure your

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property. you could ask the infra service. You know, you could get

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a panic button put in your. In your home. There are things you can

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do to you to make yourself safe without necessarily

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getting the police involved.

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>> Wo0: Amazing.

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We're obviously going to put all of that, information in the show

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notes and I've been opening tabs as you've

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been talking about the power and control wheel.

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>> Lucy: So that was a huge info dump. But, it's just. This is just

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information. I feel like people should. People should know because it

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kept me. I genuinely believe it kept me safe.

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>> Wo0: no, I, I agree with you. Like, I wish that I'd

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have known that kind of stuff. So this happened to me a

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long time ago. So like 25 years ago was the

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violent stuff and like when I was going outside and the

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fear of even

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like not being asleep. Do you know what I mean?

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>> Lucy: I. I struggled to allow myself to sleep

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because I was so frightened. I actually didn't want to close my eyes at one point

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because I felt so unsafe. and I know that probably sounds extreme

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and I think sometimes your fear actually does cross of.

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Well, no, but I think sometimes you. You get so afraid of what

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might happen, they actually, you know, your fear is always not

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necessarily representative of. Do you see what I mean? But

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it is because of what you've been through. So.

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>> Wo0: But I would pretend to be asleep so

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that I would get left alone. Do you know what I

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mean? So I wouldn't be asleep. I'd know very much what

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was going on. But I'd just like, m. Oh, why are you in bed at 5

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o'clock in the interview? Yeah.

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Thank you so much, Lucy.

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Right, so I want to hear.

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So, because we're not man bashing on this. We,

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we're like. I love men, especially love

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men. So can you, like, tell

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me a positive example of a man

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showing their support to you or

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showing up for you? No.

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>> Lucy: Yeah, So I think, I think like,

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we. I think

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one of the things I had to do because I was one of those people who had been in

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more than one kind of like,

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not, very healthy relationship and so I had to kind of like quite

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actively reflect on like, what were my patterns within

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relationships. and so, you know, again,

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like a little shout out because there's programmes you can join for this. Women

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who's been in more, more than one relationship. for example, the Freedom

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Programme. So please, like, ask around for that. That.

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But. So I think things like

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when, when people are good listeners but you can trust

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them with that information. And I know that sounds silly but, like

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I. My husband is just honestly the

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sweetest person, so I know that I can talk to him about anything.

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I think as well, because he. He's also a, professional. He's worked in this.

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So he think he a. He gets where I'm coming from. I don't

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have to like, try and like, explain it to him too

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much because he. Because he works in that field. But, B,

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I know that, A, I can trust him with that information, and he

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doesn't judge me because I think when you've been through a

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situation where you've opened up and you've been vulnerable to people, they've m.

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Then used that information to harm you. you know, or

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to create more like, creative ways to just, like, you know,

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psychologically abuse you, to then be able to then open up to someone, actually

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know. Like, you know, this is a safe person. This is someone I can trust with my

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emotions. But I can't even begin to tell you. It's like, oh,

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like, I didn't know you could have relationships like this.

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Amazing.

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>> Wo0: Oh, I'm so happy for you. Like,

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goals. And finally, my

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love, can you tell us, one

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piece of clothing that you

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wear that makes you feel powerful or

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beautiful? Could be your brown leather

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jacket.

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>> Lucy: I mean, I probably would go for that jacket. I got. I got married

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in that jacket. but, I mean, I've never been a huge. Like,

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I'm a little gremlin. I would just wear trackies, you know, I mean,

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trackies everywhere in the pyjamas of the day. But

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I think, yeah, I'm gonna go for that leather jacket. It's,

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It's heavy as hell, but it,

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Yeah, I feel good when I wear it.

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I love that.

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>> Wo0: Oh, bless you, Lucy. Thank you so much for

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coming on. You are an absolute angel.

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>> Lucy: Thank you for having me.

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>> Wo0: And I will see you.

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>> Lucy: Sorry if your ears have melted from all that information.

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>> Wo0: No, no, I just know it's really good.

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>> Lucy: Thank you you so much for having me.

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>> Wo0: Thanks, Lucy. I love

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you.

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That's it for today's episode of Don't Fucking Tell Me what to Wear

Speaker: 00:39:07

or How to Run My Business on the Woopod with me,

Speaker: 00:39:10

Wendy Gannon. This is more than just a podcast.

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It's part of female 5 million. Head to the link in the

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show notes to find out more about our movement to empower

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Leave us a rating and a review, and let's keep this movement

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of something bigger. bye.