The Stories No One Tells: Carrie Bower on Exposing Domestic Abuse in Later Life
"Older victims of domestic abuse are completely invisible." – Carrie Bower
This episode is a powerful and emotional conversation with Carrie Bower, a campaigner, podcaster and domestic abuse specialist working to raise visibility for older women experiencing abuse. Carrie is the founder of Visible Later Lives and the voice behind the Let’s Get Visible podcast. Together, we unpack the silencing of older women, the reality of abuse in later life, and what it really means to hold space for someone who has never felt safe enough to speak.
Carrie’s stories will stop you in your tracks but there are plenty of laughs and uplifting moments to carry you through this emotional episode.
In This Episode:
- What domestic abuse in later life really looks like—and why it’s so often missed
- Why the risk of being killed increases when a woman leaves an abusive relationship
- The problem with headlines, the media, and which women get seen
- The silence around femicide of women over 50
- Real stories (names have been changed) of women Carrie has worked with, like ‘Grace’ and ‘Blue Van Woman’
- What workplaces can do to help victims access support
About Carrie Bower:
Carrie Bower is a domestic abuse awareness trainer, storyteller, and the founder of Visible Later Lives, shining a light on abuse, coercion and control experienced by women in mid and later life. She’s the host of the Let’s Get Visible podcast and an outspoken advocate for ensuring all survivors are seen and heard, regardless of their age or gender. Carrie has an unwavering determination to change the narrative around domestic abuse at all stages of life.
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Female Five Million is an unapologetic celebration of women who’ve faced male to female abuse, broken free, and are now thriving on their own terms. This is a story of empowerment and resilience against abuse and toxicity from men, in business and beyond. This is a multi-faceted project made up of two empowering photoshoots, conversations, research, exhibitions, art and a beautiful coffee table book.
“This project is deeply personal to me because I’ve been there. I know what it’s like to suffer domestic, sexual, financial, mental abuse and general misogyny in the workplace and my private life. I’ve been there but I’ve also found the strength to rise above and overcome it.
By speaking openly about my experiences, I’ve met so many incredible women who’ve faced similar challenges, yet they’ve come out the other side stronger, smarter, (more hilarious) and more determined than ever.
We're not just survivors, we're f*cking queens, and our stories deserve to be told.” - Wendy Gannon, Female Five Million Founder.
Transcript
>> Wo0: Welcome to Don't Fucking Tell Me what to Wear or
Speaker:How to run My Business. This is
Speaker:the Woopod.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Over the last few years, I've started to break away from some
Speaker:of those rules and realise there's a lot of, A lot of
Speaker:inner voices telling us how we need to behave. And actually,
Speaker:what I'm realising, I've, basically stopped giving a fuck.
Speaker:>> Wo0: I'm your host, Wendy Gannon, but most people call me Woo.
Speaker:I'm a photographer, adhder, female advocate,
Speaker:and let's be honest, an all around fucking legend.
Speaker:Can you tell I didn't write this script.
Speaker:This podcast is part of Female5Million, a
Speaker:movement founded to empower women to step the fuck up,
Speaker:take control and unapologetically own their
Speaker:space. It all started
Speaker:with some fucking Jebins LinkedIn post
Speaker:spouting some sexist bullshit about how women should dress
Speaker:to succeed in business. And you know what?
Speaker:Stuff like that really me
Speaker:off. It really fucks me off.
Speaker:So I posted about it and that post ignited
Speaker:something bigger. a nationwide photography project, a full
Speaker:blown fucking movement. And now this podcast
Speaker:here on the Woopod, we're raising the voices of women who refuse
Speaker:to be told what to do. Women who are done playing by the
Speaker:rules and are now saying, don't fucking tell me what to wear or how to
Speaker:run my business. If you've ever been told to tone it
Speaker:down, dress more appropriately or, or run your business
Speaker:like a man, fuck that.
Speaker:Expect raw, unfiltered conversations with women who
Speaker:have fought through sexism, abuse and
Speaker:outdated patriarchal bullshit to build success on their
Speaker:terms. all whilst wearing whatever the fuck they want.
Speaker:Oh, and there's more swearing than our producer is willing to
Speaker:beep out. Sorry, Buckers. Speaking of
Speaker:which, you'll probably hear me ask producer Bacchus to chime
Speaker:in from time to time, because like I give a shit
Speaker:what she says. We've both got adhd. We bounce well off each
Speaker:other. Deal with it. We're here
Speaker:to celebrate women doing business their way and shine a spotlight
Speaker:on the incredible ways women are fighting back and lifting each other
Speaker:up. Because, to be honest, that's what it's all about.
Speaker:And, for those who aren't able to speak up right now, for
Speaker:whatever reason. I see you.
Speaker:Okay, let's crack on then.
Speaker:Hello there. Ah, and welcome to the Woo
Speaker:board. It's the series of Don't Tell Me what to
Speaker:Wear or how to run my business. Today,
Speaker:obviously, we're joined by the Beautiful Buckers.
Speaker:and you're very welcome. And we're also
Speaker:>> Wo0: joined by Carrie Bauer.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Hi, Carrie. Hello. Woo from
Speaker:32 is 32, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Not, not. Lots of people know that.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Sorry.
Speaker:>> Wo0: No, I don't care. It's fine. It just doesn't really get talked about too.
Speaker:>> Buckers: What was that? I missed that.
Speaker:>> Wo0: So Carrie asked me on her podcast why I'm
Speaker:called Woo. And the reason I am called Woo
Speaker:is because when I was little I used to live at number 32
Speaker:and my M. Friend, my friend Marianne's mom,
Speaker:Mari, she used to say, here comes Wendy Wu from
Speaker:32.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Oh, that's so lovely.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Literally it.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Oh, can we keep that in? That's so cute.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah, you can keep that in, I don't mind.
Speaker:Hi, Carrie.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Hello.
Speaker:>> Wo0: So you I found
Speaker:through female 5 million and
Speaker:I fangirl you a bit. I stan
Speaker:you. Can you tell
Speaker:us what you do? Because I've never known anybody talk about anything like this
Speaker:before and it opened my eyes and made me cry.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah, sure. It's a bit of a
Speaker:warning before I start talking about this. I talk about
Speaker:domestic abuse and trauma in later
Speaker:life. And later life is
Speaker:really subjective. So, you know, getting older means
Speaker:different things to different people. but I've had the
Speaker:privilege of working with
Speaker:thousands of older people over about
Speaker:25 years and what
Speaker:I've realised is there's a veil of
Speaker:silence. and a lot of older victims
Speaker:of domestic abuse and survivors
Speaker:are completely invisible. And
Speaker:so I'm really, really passionate about changing
Speaker:that. And it's a difficult topic. It's a
Speaker:topic that most people want to put their fingers in their ears to.
Speaker:Don't, want to talk about it. It's not sexy. And that
Speaker:means it's really, really hard to get a light
Speaker:shone on this issue. So that's basically what I do.
Speaker:>> Wo0: And how are we going to come back to that later?
Speaker:How did you get involved in female 5
Speaker:million? What made you want to do that?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I saw a post on LinkedIn and it had to be on
Speaker:LinkedIn because it's the only place to hang out. I don't
Speaker:really do any of the social media. and I have no
Speaker:idea how I saw it, but I
Speaker:did. And actually it was, it was the
Speaker:kind of. The Woo bit of your name
Speaker:came up and I think I was. Might have already been connected to
Speaker:you anyway, but I didn't put the two and two together. So I
Speaker:had no idea that Wendy Gannon, the photographer, was
Speaker:Woo, the project Founder. and I just saw
Speaker:it and it just spoke to me. I think the fact that you were
Speaker:doing it in Manchester as well as London, the
Speaker:fact that I've always felt like there's certain rules
Speaker:about what you wear to work and looking professional,
Speaker:particularly when you work in like the older
Speaker:person space, is almost this expectation that you have
Speaker:to look a certain way to be taken
Speaker:seriously. and over the last few years
Speaker:I've started to break away from some of those rules and
Speaker:realise there's a lot of, a lot of inner voices telling
Speaker:us how we need to behave and actually what I'm realising,
Speaker:and that's about perimenopause as well, which I'm sure we'll come on
Speaker:to.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Oh yeah, let's.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I've basically stopped giving a. I mean I do care
Speaker:what people think, but I care less
Speaker:and I'm actually much less. And I just really. I
Speaker:really like who I am, the person I am and that. And I
Speaker:am a bit different to the people that work in this sector.
Speaker:So that post just really spoke to me and I thought, oh
Speaker:God, I've never been in a photo shoot. Oh,
Speaker:sod it. I've got a bit of annual leave left over. I'll, I'll
Speaker:just take the day off and sign up for it. Fancied a bit of a
Speaker:trip to Manchester. and the rest is history. I
Speaker:mean I can talk all day about what the experience was like,
Speaker:but I'm sure you're going to ask me about that.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Oh, go on, tell us what the experience was like.
Speaker:Go on, tell us, tell us about. We actually haven't
Speaker:really spoken too much about the
Speaker:actual.
Speaker:>> Buckers: No, that's a good point actually.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah, go for it.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Okay.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Pick me up babe at the scene. Carrie, what is
Speaker:a day, long photo shoot with Woo, like and a bunch of other
Speaker:women?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Well, first of all I signed up and I had
Speaker:this image of what it would be like because I've never been in
Speaker:a photo, a, ah, photography studio in my life ever.
Speaker:and I, I drove to Manchester. Normally I
Speaker:get the train but I knew it was a bit far from the station
Speaker:and I also, I'll be really honest, I thought if I
Speaker:drive I can, I can check my hair and makeup.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Sorry, what was that? That was my
Speaker:1111 alarm. So I can say I'm a powerful
Speaker:manifesto of love, health, wealth, happiness and success.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: You do that every day at 11 past 11. Thank you.
Speaker:>> Buckers: I'm really glad that we were a part of that.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah, I feel like should we do it together?
Speaker:>> Buckers: Yeah. What do we say?
Speaker:>> Wo0: I am a powerful manifesto
Speaker:of health, Health, wealth,
Speaker:love, happiness and success.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Do you remember all those things? Wealth, health?
Speaker:>> Wo0: It used to be. It used to be. I'm a powerful manifesto of
Speaker:wealth. I've just added them on as I go.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Just like a little shopping list.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Buckers: On my manifestation shopping list. I love that.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Should we do it together?
Speaker:>> Buckers: Go on, then. After three.
Speaker:>> Wo0: I'm, A power.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Hang on.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Oh, yeah.
Speaker:>> Buckers: One, two, three.
Speaker:>> Wo0: I am a powerful
Speaker:manifesto
Speaker:of health,
Speaker:wealth, happiness,
Speaker:love and success.
Speaker:>> Buckers: And success.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: But I have a terrible memory
Speaker:because I can't remember anything.
Speaker:>> Wo0: I mean, that was be. That was beautiful.
Speaker:>> Buckers: I'm never going to forget that. Where were we?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Anyway? Anyway, where was I? So, yeah, basically
Speaker:I decided not to get the train, decided to get in the car because
Speaker:I wanted to be able to check my hair and makeup before I arrived.
Speaker:So. A park up
Speaker:in what. What canal? I can't really describe
Speaker:what it was like. Felt really dodgy and I suddenly
Speaker:had this fear. Oh, my God.
Speaker:this is gonna be. This is gonna be like a kidnapping.
Speaker:>> Buckers: I've been targeted and it was
Speaker:much worse.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I'm going to be bundled in the back of a van. I have no. What, you
Speaker:know, what does a photography studio look like? Anyway, after
Speaker:pacing up and down this road, I find this
Speaker:bloke and say, do you know where this studio is?
Speaker:And he's like, oh, I think it's this one. Anyway, took me to
Speaker:it, opened the door, like, peeked through,
Speaker:and it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,
Speaker:boom. And all these amazing women just
Speaker:like, give me a hug,
Speaker:welcome. And I'm like, oh, my God, what
Speaker:have I walked into? And it was incredible.
Speaker:It was just full of love and warmth.
Speaker:Wendy just made me feel immediately at ease,
Speaker:which I know everybody says. and I
Speaker:had my photography session and then I just
Speaker:hung out with everybody because I was having such a lovely time.
Speaker:And then what happened was loads of other people joined
Speaker:and I realised I was connected to quite a few of them already on LinkedIn.
Speaker:So it was already like, oh, oh, all these
Speaker:people in real life. And we. We had some pretty deep
Speaker:chats that day, didn't we, Wendy?
Speaker:>> Wo0: We did have some pretty deep chats, yeah. Call me what you want, I
Speaker:don't care, whatever. Yeah, we did have some
Speaker:pretty deep chats and, I think I'd
Speaker:found your, I had found your
Speaker:newsletter maybe the day or
Speaker:two before.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Wo0: And read it and I was like, what the.
Speaker:And commented on it, like, what the.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah, it's a heavy newsletter and I've actually had to stop. Stop
Speaker:writing it because it was, it was
Speaker:pretty tough.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah, I can imagine, like doing the research and everything.
Speaker:Can we, can we talk a little bit about
Speaker:the whole over 50 femicide
Speaker:thing, please?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah. So
Speaker:where do I start? Obviously, my, my passion's raising the
Speaker:visibility of anybody affected by domestic
Speaker:abuse. but I
Speaker:really, really inspired by a woman called
Speaker:Karen in Gala Smith, and she
Speaker:has the Counting Dead Women project. And what she
Speaker:does every year is she counts all the
Speaker:women that are killed by men in.
Speaker:I think it's in England or Wales, it might be the uk.
Speaker:and every year Jess Phillips stands up in Parliament and she
Speaker:reads every single name out. And
Speaker:every year I watch that and every year I am, you know,
Speaker:goosebumps. And
Speaker:what I'm really conscious of is those, those
Speaker:women who are killed that reach the
Speaker:headlines generally
Speaker:are younger, are often white,
Speaker:are often pretty, and are often
Speaker:killed in really, really
Speaker:heinous acts. You know, they're,
Speaker:they're the things that actually, you know, generate the
Speaker:clicks and get, and get the readership, which,
Speaker:let's be honest, that's what the media is all about. And I
Speaker:wanted to highlight. And that doesn't take away from their
Speaker:stories. They're all, they're, you know, all the stories are
Speaker:equal and all, all the stories are equally horrific.
Speaker:But what I wanted to do was
Speaker:highlight some of the women that are older
Speaker:that have probably lived with abuse for decades
Speaker:and have been managing to keep
Speaker:safe for a very, very long time. And something
Speaker:happens that changes, that changes
Speaker:that dynamic. And they're the women that often
Speaker:don't reach the headlines, don't get
Speaker:spoken about, don't get seen. so I
Speaker:developed this, this newsletter on M. LinkedIn
Speaker:called 50 Plus Femicides. And,
Speaker:basically I pick out a month. And it's
Speaker:random. There's no strategy to it. I just pick out a
Speaker:month where that data is
Speaker:from, Karen's, project that she does.
Speaker:And then I look at each case and I try
Speaker:and tell a bit of the story, a bit of the woman's
Speaker:story, who she really was. And I'll be really
Speaker:honest, it's actually really hard to find that information.
Speaker:Often what you hear is the man story.
Speaker:And very rarely do you hear who that woman was,
Speaker:other than she might have been a wife, she might have been a mother.
Speaker:You don't really hear who she was as a person, what
Speaker:her successes were, you know, the real rich information.
Speaker:and so I wanted to Highlight that, because these women are not
Speaker:only killed by their partners and intimate partners,
Speaker:they're also killed by their sons and grandsons.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah. Yeah. I,
Speaker:avoid you ask you these questions in the flesh, but I'm gonna ask them again because
Speaker:I think they're really important. Why does this
Speaker:happen so much
Speaker:in. In women over 50?
Speaker:Because it's a lot. It's. It's.
Speaker:It's a lot. And. And I was. I was sorry. I was
Speaker:shocked at how many it was. I was
Speaker:shocked that it was even a, thing. I'd never heard of it before.
Speaker:Of course it's a thing.
Speaker:Why do you think it happens?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Well, there is the question, and the
Speaker:problem is there isn't enough research to really be able
Speaker:to answer, that. So I can give you kind of my thinking behind
Speaker:it. But it's based on very little evidence
Speaker:other than, my experiences and what I've read. So I read quite a
Speaker:lot of domestic homicide reviews. So, you know, do have a fair bit
Speaker:of knowledge. I also chose them. why.
Speaker:Why does it happen? Well, we often look at sort of,
Speaker:particularly in a relationship,
Speaker:homicides often happen because of a loss of control.
Speaker:So there's this kind of myth
Speaker:that when a man kills a woman,
Speaker:it's an act of passion, it's an act of loss of control.
Speaker:They saw red mist. Actually, what
Speaker:the evidence and research tells us is that that is not
Speaker:the case at all, actually. This is always
Speaker:about control. And often it's at the time of
Speaker:separation when that person feels like they're
Speaker:losing control, that they're more likely
Speaker:to. To end somebody's life. That that's
Speaker:the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate consequence
Speaker:of that person challenging them in
Speaker:later life. I think what we see is
Speaker:there are different. So sometimes it might be separation,
Speaker:but also it might be things like retirement,
Speaker:redundancy, ill health,
Speaker:needing support. And it
Speaker:might be the ill health of the perpetrator. It might be ill health of the
Speaker:victim. It can be both. But anything
Speaker:that causes that man to feel like they are
Speaker:losing control of
Speaker:the situation that they've created.
Speaker:Because, at the end of the day, they've got a hostage, haven't they?
Speaker:They've got somebody. They're completely in their control.
Speaker:They're trapped. But if that entrapment
Speaker:is starting to lift, that's when
Speaker:there's often those kind of homicidal thoughts and
Speaker:feelings. The reason I think we
Speaker:don't talk about it enough in this age group is because
Speaker:women fade, don't they? They become
Speaker:increasingly invisible as we get Age,
Speaker:and therefore we're not valued, not important.
Speaker:>> Wo0: I didn't know that
Speaker:about. That's when people
Speaker:are mostly killed, is when
Speaker:they're going, wow.
Speaker:>> Buckers: When they're escaping.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Highest risk time. Which is why we often say,
Speaker:you know, if you are thinking about escaping, leaving,
Speaker:end a relationship, make sure that you have the
Speaker:right support of services that really understand that m.
Speaker:Risk. Because that is a really, really risky time
Speaker:and you'll start to see it now. So when you see stories in the
Speaker:news, look at the circumstances, and
Speaker:it will usually be because that, that woman has made
Speaker:a decision to
Speaker:end that relationship in some way.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Wow. I'm just thinking back to how
Speaker:absolutely lucky I am.
Speaker:Not lucky, but lucky. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker:I put a question here. How can
Speaker:women in later life protect themselves? So
Speaker:I was. I was thinking
Speaker:that it was probably because you, like, retired, as you say, retirement
Speaker:comes to spending more time together. The,
Speaker:Historically
Speaker:women were at, home looking
Speaker:after the house. The husbands were
Speaker:at work. Now husbands are at home. They're together
Speaker:all the time. is what I. Is what I
Speaker:thought. How can.
Speaker:How can women in that situation, or
Speaker:anyone in any woman in later life, that. That is
Speaker:going through domestic abuse, protect
Speaker:themselves so that that
Speaker:doesn't happen?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: That's a really good question and it's a really difficult
Speaker:one to answer because actually we should be focusing on
Speaker:why the men. Why the men are behaving this way. And this isn't to
Speaker:say, Yes, this isn't to say women
Speaker:don't. Don't abuse either and men aren't victims, of course,
Speaker:Caveat that. but the majority
Speaker:of those that are at most significant harm are female
Speaker:and the majority of perpetrators are male. So when we're
Speaker:talking about this, being able
Speaker:to protect yourself requires knowledge, doesn't it? It
Speaker:requires being aware of what's happening. So
Speaker:what's interesting is often,
Speaker:particularly in later life, because this behaviour has been
Speaker:so normalised. Actually
Speaker:most, most of the women that I've spoken to later in
Speaker:life didn't even know that this was abuse.
Speaker:Didn't even recognise they were so in
Speaker:it. They couldn't see the wood for the trees. It
Speaker:became their life. So I think
Speaker:raising awareness, talking about domestic abuse,
Speaker:what it looks and feels like, using language that
Speaker:works and that's a bit, maybe softer
Speaker:sometimes, is a. Is a good start.
Speaker:I think workplaces have a massive role to play.
Speaker:I think workplaces should always
Speaker:have this on their agenda in terms of wellbeing.
Speaker:Particularly now we've got so many people working from home.
Speaker:Actually, if you've got a resource space in your work
Speaker:intranet or wherever you work that has some
Speaker:information, using your work computer
Speaker:might be the only place you can safely access
Speaker:information without that perpetrator finding information,
Speaker:like if they're looking at your phone or your emails. So
Speaker:that's one area. But I think having
Speaker:conversations is key because actually, what
Speaker:I found is when you start talking about this topic, people
Speaker:start gravitating towards you and
Speaker:saying, you know, you were talking about that
Speaker:particular story. And storytelling, again, is a thing
Speaker:that I really like. that could have been
Speaker:me. That feels a little bit like me.
Speaker:And it's really giving space to women to start to
Speaker:make sense of what's happening and realise that they're not
Speaker:going mad, that this isn't in their head.
Speaker:Because we all feel it.
Speaker:>> Wo0: that's what we feel, that there's no shame.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: There's no shame. And that actually, this is more
Speaker:common than we realise. And I think having
Speaker:the more of those conversations, the more
Speaker:empowered women feel that that might not mean
Speaker:escaping. That's not always the
Speaker:solution for some women in later life,
Speaker:particularly women in their 80s and 90s who've lived
Speaker:with this for 50, 60 years. The
Speaker:reality is leaving might
Speaker:not be the safest solution for that woman.
Speaker:It might not be the outcome she wants, but
Speaker:knowing that she's not mad, wow,
Speaker:that's massive.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: And then she can start to make sense of, okay,
Speaker:how can I live better, live
Speaker:safer? and that's uncomfortable because we just want
Speaker:everybody to be safe and happy and healthy and
Speaker:have a lovely life, don't we? But the reality is that's the not always
Speaker:the outcome people want.
Speaker:So, it's unique,
Speaker:but I just think there's so many women that
Speaker:die, either by natural causes or by
Speaker:homicide or suicide, who have
Speaker:experienced domestic abuse
Speaker:and they never get seen, they never get
Speaker:heard. They live a miserable
Speaker:life, a scary life, in
Speaker:fear, in chronic fear.
Speaker:And if only
Speaker:we can just give that space to those women,
Speaker:that's got to be a positive. And I'll talk to you about some of the
Speaker:women I've spoken to if you want me to, but,
Speaker:yeah, I think sometimes we
Speaker:think we have to have all the answers and the solutions.
Speaker:Most of the time, that woman knows exactly what she wants
Speaker:and exactly how to keep herself safe. She might not be able
Speaker:to say it out loud, she might not be able to use the
Speaker:language, but she's doing a bloody
Speaker:fantastic job keeping Herself safe.
Speaker:But just, you know, holding somebody's hand and saying,
Speaker:I hear you. See you. You're not
Speaker:mad? He's massive. It's huge.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah. Are you okay, Bookers?
Speaker:>> Buckers: Yeah. Thank you.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: It's tough. I'm all right. It's a really tough topic.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Like what you were saying, Wendy, earlier, I just. I've never considered
Speaker:this, so I'm upset with
Speaker:myself that this is something that I've never really given any thought
Speaker:to. But just,
Speaker:just really hit me what you were saying, Carrie, about
Speaker:how some women never
Speaker:escape. No, some women never leave. So just the
Speaker:thought of women that we don't even know and will never even know about
Speaker:living this kind of existence in
Speaker:this, in this day and age, in any day, in any
Speaker:age is, Yeah,
Speaker:I'm really glad that you're doing what you're doing.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Thanks. Carrie, can you tell us about some
Speaker:of the women that you've spoken to?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah, yeah, I can. Obviously I'll change their names
Speaker:and I won't reach any confidence.
Speaker:All of the women that I will talk about are no longer with us,
Speaker:but they're no longer with us because of natural causes. So
Speaker:they haven't been. They haven't been murdered. Yeah, I'm not going to talk
Speaker:about those, those cases that would, that wouldn't be right.
Speaker:First of all, I'm going to talk to you about my grandma because she's
Speaker:really the reason, or at least the beginning of
Speaker:the story. I think there's been lots of
Speaker:influences along the way. my grandma
Speaker:was. She died. I can't even remember when she died,
Speaker:but I wasn't at high school, so I was really young when she died
Speaker:and I used to go and stay with her and my granddad
Speaker:every summer holidays. My mum was a single parent
Speaker:and, I'd go and stay. And whenever we stayed, I had a brother.
Speaker:My brother would sleep in the sofa with my
Speaker:granddad because they had like a pull out bed. They had a
Speaker:little two bed, one bedroom bungalow. And I would sleep with my
Speaker:grandma. And I loved lying there in the
Speaker:morning watching my grandma put on
Speaker:her. Her array of underwear.
Speaker:So like a panty girdle stock. Like there was
Speaker:so many layers. And I just sort of lie there fascinated
Speaker:at ah, this kind of. And I don't know what
Speaker:it was, but one day, and I don't know the context
Speaker:of the conversation, but I probably was only 9 or
Speaker:10. She said, you know, your
Speaker:granddad's a hitter. And I said,
Speaker:what do you mean, grandma? And she said, he hits me
Speaker:and then literally the conversation moved on and I
Speaker:don't remember ever repeating it,
Speaker:don't remember what that
Speaker:meant. But I often think about it
Speaker:and I definitely know that I saw my granddad in a
Speaker:very different way after that.
Speaker:And he was very charming, everybody loved him,
Speaker:everybody thought he was fabulous. and she,
Speaker:she died, she, she died of natural causes.
Speaker:But she was kind of that one person that I
Speaker:always felt really safe with. She was really, really
Speaker:wonderful. And I think
Speaker:I started to see older men in a different
Speaker:way because of that. And then
Speaker:lots of other experiences, personal experiences of my
Speaker:own which I don't mind sharing but that's not
Speaker:really the reason. But then when I was a social
Speaker:worker, I became a social worker when I was about
Speaker:22, 23 and I was really
Speaker:lucky. Back in the early 2000s social workers actually got
Speaker:to spend time with people which they don't
Speaker:have that privilege now.
Speaker:>> Wo0: No they definitely don't.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: And I think, I don't know what it is about me but I've just got
Speaker:just one of those people that people tell their secrets to.
Speaker:And I noticed that lots of women wanted
Speaker:to give this very young, bright eyed and bushy
Speaker:tailed social worker advice
Speaker:and I was really open to it. And so
Speaker:I would hear these little stories. They
Speaker:didn't say things like domestic abuse. Then
Speaker:they would just talk to me about
Speaker:the privilege that my generation had, the
Speaker:choices that we have,
Speaker:not accepting certain
Speaker:behaviours. And so I think
Speaker:I just started to piece together these
Speaker:bits of advice and obviously I already had that
Speaker:lens from my conversation with my grandma.
Speaker:And I had a father who was quite
Speaker:controlling with his, he had a number of wives. So I saw
Speaker:it as a child. I sort of picked up on
Speaker:bits there. But the
Speaker:woman who probably really
Speaker:sparked the next wave of me really channelling
Speaker:this was a woman and I will call her Grace,
Speaker:she's died now and Grace, and her
Speaker:husband, I'll call him George. I used to
Speaker:go and visit them, they lived in Yorkshire and I used to go and visit
Speaker:them once a month. I was working in a different role
Speaker:where I got to work with people right through to the end of their
Speaker:life. And when I used to go and visit they
Speaker:had like a really strict time that I could go. I had to be
Speaker:there at one o' clock and I had to be, I had to leave by
Speaker:two and there was an atmosphere.
Speaker:I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And
Speaker:George would after a while take his
Speaker:hearing aids out. when he took his hearing aids out, I thought that
Speaker:that was my cue, that he'd had enough, that, you
Speaker:know, he. He just wanted me to leave. He'd had enough for
Speaker:talking and it wasn't. And I worked with
Speaker:them for about two and a half years and it wasn't until
Speaker:the last few days of Gracie's life that she
Speaker:told me what taking the hearing aids meant.
Speaker:And I won't go into the detail and. But there were
Speaker:consequences. And she lived her life. She was
Speaker:married to George for 65 years.
Speaker:And, she disclosed to me that their son had
Speaker:ended his life by suicide when he was 18.
Speaker:And she had to destroy all of the photographs.
Speaker:She wasn't allowed a photograph of him. That they had
Speaker:mealtimes and bedtimes. She always
Speaker:had to be in bed by 9:00.
Speaker:and that when George took out his hearing
Speaker:aids, there was a consequence for her.
Speaker:And that really stays
Speaker:with me because I didn't see it,
Speaker:didn't spot it at all.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Of course, you're not going to. You're not going
Speaker:to.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I missed it. And so
Speaker:she. I remember her squeezing my hand and saying,
Speaker:and at the time, I was going through a divorce, so she'd noticed
Speaker:that I'd had a wedding ring and then it suddenly had gone. And
Speaker:she just said to me,
Speaker:you have choices that I didn't have.
Speaker:Remember that? And so for the. Her
Speaker:last few days, I said to her, what do you. What. What can I do
Speaker:for you? What can I do? And she went into
Speaker:a care home and she said, just
Speaker:don't let him be in my room. Make sure we've got
Speaker:separate rooms. They both had to go into a care home
Speaker:and let me make sure that I can watch
Speaker:a drama at 9 o' clock at night, because all
Speaker:I've ever wanted to do. I see those dramas being
Speaker:advertised. Sorry, I'm getting you all going.
Speaker:You know when, like, ITV has a drama
Speaker:advertised. She didn't
Speaker:want to leave George. She didn't want to go into a refuge,
Speaker:she didn't want to escape. All she
Speaker:wanted was to be able to watch a drama series.
Speaker:And so that's. And so she
Speaker:did. She got to do that. she got to do it. That's
Speaker:all I could gift Grace.
Speaker:>> Wo0: You made her life, though. That's all she
Speaker:wanted. And you gave it to her. That's all she wanted and you gave it.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I think that's the thing, is sometimes as
Speaker:professionals working in space, we think we've got
Speaker:to have all of the answers and What Grace taught
Speaker:me is she just needed to be heard.
Speaker:That's all she needed. And then some action. And
Speaker:actually, the action was really easy.
Speaker:Really, really easy. We told George there were no rooms
Speaker:on. On Gracie's floor and he had to be on the top floor.
Speaker:And she got to die, She got to die,
Speaker:you know, at peace.
Speaker:Yeah. I'm sorry. I've made you.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Oh, bless you, Grace.
Speaker:>> Buckers: I wonder if she ever told anybody
Speaker:else.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I have no idea. Because at the funeral
Speaker:and I went to a funeral, you would have thought
Speaker:they'd had this very happy, traditional marriage.
Speaker:It was never spoken of. And I promised her I
Speaker:would never repeat her story.
Speaker:Obviously, you know, I do repeat her story, but not,
Speaker:She is.
Speaker:>> Wo0: However, though, like,
Speaker:unfortunately, I think they probably did have a traditional
Speaker:marriage.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Buckers: For the time.
Speaker:>> Wo0: For the time.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I think their marriage was actually quite normal for the time. They
Speaker:were. They were 95 when I worked with
Speaker:them, and that was back in 2000,
Speaker:probably 14. So, you know, Grace
Speaker:was born in the 1930s.
Speaker:She was married in the 1950s. Women didn't
Speaker:work. Women were expected
Speaker:to be subservient to their husbands. This was
Speaker:normal. I've spoken to work with a
Speaker:lot of women since women in their 70s who say,
Speaker:you know, being hit was like a badge of
Speaker:honour in those days. Women actually saw
Speaker:themselves as being loved passionately if their
Speaker:husband hit them. And I. I didn't realise that
Speaker:that wasn't. You know, I'd not known
Speaker:that. But she said that that's so
Speaker:normalised. Even though the laws have changed
Speaker:for, women like Grace,
Speaker:that's, That's. That's her normal. She didn't know any different.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah. Oh, Grace.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I know every.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Every single Grace out there. I'm sending you all of
Speaker:my.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Men.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Can we hear about, Can we hear about some other.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Do you want to hear about some positive stories?
Speaker:>> Buckers: Yeah. I was gonna say, can we have, some more. More Graces
Speaker:that had a bit more time.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Do the things they wanted to do.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: This is a woman.
Speaker:>> Buckers: While we compose ourselves.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah. Have a moment. This is a woman
Speaker:who will be known as Blue Van Woman. So Blue Van Woman
Speaker:is a woman that I collaborate with at the moment. She's alive,
Speaker:she's in. She's 70. she. She
Speaker:guides quite a lot of the work that I do. now,
Speaker:Blue Van Woman, was also a
Speaker:victim of domestic abuse, but she successfully
Speaker:escaped. And, she's involved in
Speaker:lots of research. So we're currently both
Speaker:collaborating on a piece of research,
Speaker:with A researcher. but, but Blue van woman.
Speaker:At the age of 70. She has a tattoo of
Speaker:a dragonfly on her forearm. and that is her, like,
Speaker:badge of, you know, rebirth.
Speaker:Re, you know, starting again. She's got
Speaker:a camper van. She travels all over
Speaker:the country in her camper van. She's even got a
Speaker:hashtag and a sticker on it that says blue Van Woman.
Speaker:She's awesome. She's doing a PhD in
Speaker:creative WR. So she helps me write.
Speaker:and she's incredible. and she's very, very
Speaker:intelligent woman and just does
Speaker:amazing things. And she talks
Speaker:about, she writes a blog for me and she
Speaker:talks about how she never
Speaker:imagined that she could own a camper van
Speaker:and picture tents and, you know,
Speaker:work the gas cylinder and all of those things, and she goes
Speaker:swimming in the sea. She does all sorts of.
Speaker:Because she had this inner voice called Stanley that tells her
Speaker:she's not good enough, she can't do it. And that inner voice has really
Speaker:come from the generation that
Speaker:she's come from that's told her that. But also
Speaker:that ex who was very controlling.
Speaker:and she is living a wonderful life now.
Speaker:And I met her in a Violence Against Women and
Speaker:Girls book club, because that's the kind of thing I
Speaker:do for fun.
Speaker:But I met loads of women,
Speaker:but I met loads of women in that book club in their 60s,
Speaker:70s, who are bright,
Speaker:intelligent, fierce women
Speaker:who are safe and, have
Speaker:moved forward after domestic abuse
Speaker:and like, just super inspiring, really.
Speaker:That.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah. 100. Yeah, that's
Speaker:wonderful.
Speaker:I'm gonna move on a little bit now. And I
Speaker:don't know if you've got an answer to this.
Speaker:We want to make sure that people know that we're not man
Speaker:bashing here. so can
Speaker:you tell us of a positive time, a
Speaker:positive story about a man in your.
Speaker:Let me read the question. God, you think I'd know this by now,
Speaker:wouldn't you? Oh.
Speaker:Do you have any positive examples of men showing their support
Speaker:to you?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Loads, Loads. And I'll be
Speaker:honest, you know, I was a
Speaker:grandchild of two, you know, men from
Speaker:a different generation who actually, on
Speaker:reflection, were abusive and a father who abandoned
Speaker:me as a child and was an absolute, you know what.
Speaker:So it didn't start off very well.
Speaker:However, I have two, two brilliant
Speaker:brothers who are kind,
Speaker:supportive cheerleaders and they were
Speaker:parented and grandparented by those same,
Speaker:you know, so. So they did break the cycle. They're
Speaker:brilliant dads. They're great brothers. So that there's Some
Speaker:examples, I've got a lovely partner who's a
Speaker:proper bloke, he's a tradesman and he is a
Speaker:proper ally as well. so, yeah, and
Speaker:also in the sector that I work in and on my podcast
Speaker:I've interviewed a number of. Of allies
Speaker:who actually are quite
Speaker:courageous because it's not easy to talk about this topic
Speaker:as a man. Have come on my podcast and talk
Speaker:to me about being allies.
Speaker:stepping into that discomfort. And I often
Speaker:liken this, that the way I'm trying to think about this is
Speaker:how uncomfortable is it? And I think about
Speaker:talking, about anti racism as a white woman.
Speaker:Actually, it is uncomfortable. Of course it's uncomfortable.
Speaker:I'm really privileged. I'm white. I don't
Speaker:have.
Speaker:>> Wo0: You don't want to be that saviour, do you?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Want to be the saviour? Don't want to say the wrong thing. Don't want to get it
Speaker:wrong.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: And I risk getting it wrong and offending people.
Speaker:So the safest thing to do is do nothing.
Speaker:But actually, there's no growth without a bit of
Speaker:discomfort. And discomfort does come from that
Speaker:privilege. So I've tried to understand it in that
Speaker:context. And actually, you know,
Speaker:a lot of men that do speak up get bashed
Speaker:for speaking up.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: And I think it's really important to create spaces
Speaker:where they. They can ask questions and
Speaker:risk getting it wrong and risk offending you.
Speaker:Because actually, we're not going to achieve
Speaker:anything if we just silence the men.
Speaker:Like, we don't. Women have been silenced for years. It doesn't mean
Speaker:we want to silence men. We just need to have conversations.
Speaker:We live in this really divided world. We need to
Speaker:actually have conversations. And, the
Speaker:door's going. So now the dog's going nuts.
Speaker:>> Wo0: It's not even my dog.
Speaker:And one final question, my darling. Can
Speaker:you tell us one piece of clothing or an outfit
Speaker:that makes you feel like you're most powerful or
Speaker:beautiful?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Well, you asked. Yeah. I knew you were going to ask me
Speaker:this, so I've tried to think about a really good answer. I mean, I'll
Speaker:be really honest. My favourite outfit is my dressing gown.
Speaker:But I wouldn't say that's fine. It makes
Speaker:me feel powerful. But I have recently
Speaker:been bought and my, So my company is
Speaker:visible Later Lives. And it's dark green and bright orange and
Speaker:I wear quite a lot of orange, but unfortunately it
Speaker:makes me look like Velma out of Scooby Doo.
Speaker:So I've started wearing a bit of green and
Speaker:my. My Lovely partner for my birthday, bought
Speaker:me this. I mean I told him what I wanted.
Speaker:He didn't, he didn't find it himself. But it's like a dark
Speaker:green shirt dress and it's really thick,
Speaker:heavy material. It's knee length and
Speaker:and it's dead fitted and it fits me because normally I
Speaker:order something and they never fit me and it fits me
Speaker:perfectly and I just feel really,
Speaker:I feel quite fit in it actually. Especially if I put a
Speaker:pair of. Good girl. so that
Speaker:is currently my go to outfit. I
Speaker:don't. I spend a lot of time walking the do because I don't actually have
Speaker:many opportunities to wear it. But, when I do, I'll send you
Speaker:a photo.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yes, please. Our Sam Harman, because I
Speaker:haven't mentioned it today, would say
Speaker:that you should be wearing. Don't save it for best. You should wear
Speaker:it whenever. So I think
Speaker:you should get up tomorrow morning and put that fucking dress on.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I know, but I walk the dog most days,
Speaker:so.
Speaker:>> Wo0: So get home from walking the dog. Get home from
Speaker:walking the dog and put it on.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah. What I normally do is have a really bright, bright
Speaker:top and then my pyjama bottoms on because I'm on screen.
Speaker:There you go. Wonderful.
Speaker:>> Wo0: I actually walked the dog and then got
Speaker:changed today so I am in a
Speaker:proper outfit.
Speaker:Carrie, thank you so much for coming on. You're an absolute
Speaker:hero. Thank you for the work that you do. How can
Speaker:people find you?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: So link LinkedIn. I'm really active on
Speaker:LinkedIn. and then if you go on my page on
Speaker:LinkedIn, there is, you can go to my website
Speaker:and visit my website. I deliver lots of training
Speaker:and raise awareness and what I would say is,
Speaker:you know, this has been an emotional episode. It's
Speaker:a really difficult topic. I
Speaker:try and deliver it in a, in a
Speaker:straightforward style and even
Speaker:you'd be amazed. I can even add a bit of humour in there. because
Speaker:actually
Speaker:the world is heavy. Yeah. And actually
Speaker:let's have these conversations. They're really, really difficult.
Speaker:But if we don't, nothing will change.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Nothing changes.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah. Thank you so much, Kerry. You absolute
Speaker:legend.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: You're very welcome.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Oh, and Carrie, tell us about, tell us about your podcast.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Oh, yeah, I'm really rubbish at this marketing
Speaker:malarkey. my podcast is called let's Get
Speaker:Visible now, it started as, ah, a
Speaker:podcast to aim that, to raise the
Speaker:visibility of women. So this is gendered. So my work
Speaker:outside for visible later lives isn't gendered. I
Speaker:talk about men and women who are affected by domestic abuse.
Speaker:Because it is different. It is very different for men.
Speaker:but the podcast is really focused on women in mid
Speaker:and later life. However,
Speaker:coming up soon, we're having, a bit of a series
Speaker:called. What's it called? Midlife
Speaker:Career Pivot Series.
Speaker:And it's women in midlife who've
Speaker:changed careers. Why? That's me.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Twice.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: because I just think. Actually I'm, I'm hearing.
Speaker:Because I've recently had a midlife pivot.
Speaker:Loads of people are talking to me about it and I thought,
Speaker:actually, let's throw in another
Speaker:miniseries because we did one for female five million.
Speaker:>> Buckers: yeah.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: And it went down really well. So I thought let's do another one. And let's
Speaker:light and lighten up the tone a little bit because we
Speaker:do need to break it.
Speaker:>> Wo0: can I just ask you, how long have you been doing this podcast for
Speaker:Carrie?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Wo0: How many series have you had? Carrie?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I'm on 10 at the moment.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Oh, my word. How many episodes a series?
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Oh, God. It's not, it's not that. It's not that slick.
Speaker:It's all very random. so there's no kind
Speaker:of set format. yeah,
Speaker:basically a series, an end of series. Happens when I need a
Speaker:break. Yeah. I think I'm slightly
Speaker:addicted to podcasting.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Yeah. Because I love it.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I love doing it. it's not as professional as
Speaker:this one. It's not edited and there's no music or
Speaker:anything like that. It's very raw. But it's a
Speaker:hobby for me. I don't make any money from it,
Speaker:so I kind of have to keep it quite simple.
Speaker:but you know what, it's like training for me. I've
Speaker:spoken to so many people that
Speaker:training and research all rolled into one. so.
Speaker:>> Buckers: And networking and, self promotion and. Oh,
Speaker:I'm so happy to hear an independent
Speaker:podcaster saying these things because it
Speaker:doesn't. That doesn't need to be this massive
Speaker:hoo ha about. It's got to be this or it's got to be that.
Speaker:You're. You're doing it and it's
Speaker:authentic and you're enjoying it.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Buckers: And you're being consistent with it and people are enjoying
Speaker:it. That's amazing.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Hurrah. Well bloody done, you.
Speaker:>> Buckers: That's what the medium is for.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: Yeah, it's great. And I love listening to podcasts, so that
Speaker:was always. I kind of last year did the year's
Speaker:Compass, if anyone's ever heard of the Year Compass. And I decided
Speaker:by the end of 2024. This was my
Speaker:ambition. I'm going to have a podcast. And then by
Speaker:the end of January, I thought, this is bloody ridiculous. Just do it
Speaker:and stop procrastinating. So that's what I did.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Buckers: Great.
Speaker:>> Wo0: Well done. Well done, my darling.
Speaker:>> Buckers: You're an amazing storyteller than.
Speaker:>> Wo0: So much for coming on, Carrie. Really appreciate you.
Speaker:You're lovely.
Speaker:>> Carrie Bower: I've loved it. I've loved it. Thank you for having
Speaker:me.
Speaker:>> Wo0: That's it for today's episode of Don't Tell Me what to Wear
Speaker:or How to Run My Business. On the Woopod with me,
Speaker:Wendy Gannon. This is more than just a podcast.
Speaker:It's part of female 5 million. Head to the link in the
Speaker:show notes to find out more about our movement to empower women.
Speaker:If this episode spoke to you in any way, made you laugh, made
Speaker:you cry, or maybe inspired you, share it with
Speaker:a friend who needs to hear it. Leave us a rating and a review
Speaker:and let's keep this movement growing.
Speaker:And while I've got you here, my photography is the way that
Speaker:I fight back against the patriarchy. I empower
Speaker:female founders with the confidence to be themselves in their business,
Speaker:to really enjoy their photo shoot and actually
Speaker:love their photos so then they can grow their business,
Speaker:increase their prices, and get paid what they
Speaker:deserve. If you want to work with me, drop
Speaker:me a message. All the info you need to contact me is in the show
Speaker:notes. Until next time, keep doing you
Speaker:and remember, you are part of something bigger.
Speaker:Bye.
